CNN

Opps, apparently the ticker takes awhile to update. Sorry for my rant about censorship. Funny how my post from 4 hours earlier showed up after I ranted on its exclusion though....hummm.

Hawaii Mike,
First, thanks for keeping the conversation civil and not flying off the handle like I see with a lot of other people on these blogs.
Check this story out, it explores two or three options – http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1644877-1,00.html
A few things – A Taliban controlled Afghanistan did facilitate the training of Al Qaeda for 9/11. Again, "facilitated" not "caused." To that extent, there would be no doubt that Iraq would erupt into a (deeper) civil war with ethnic cleansing and be a suitable place for terrorists to train as the Bakka valley was/is in Lebanon and Afghanistan was/is.
As far as how Iran would react, I think it is already clear they have intentions on running Iraq as a puppet state in the same manner they have done with Lebanon and Palestine. We are already finding Iranian agents training the Shiite insurgents with Iranian weapons.
My amateur opinion is that the US went in Iraq in hopes to pressure Iran into destabilizing as democracies were formed in their neighbors, Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is the real supporter of terrorism and would be the main target for an anti-terrorism war. (I’m sure I am giving the administration way too much credit for this type of strategic view.) Unfortunately, we mismanaged getting Iraq back on its feet and now Iran and other groups are trying everything to see that we leave with our tails between our legs. They (unfortunately) are doing a great job on assuring this happens based on the US public opinion polls!
Since you mentioned that you might need some help understanding Iran, check out "Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright, any of former CIA agent Robert Baer's books, and any of Whalid Phares' books. They gave me quite an education on what we face for the next generation or so in our battle with terrorism. Baer in particular shows Iran as the heart of the beast particularly as we were struggling with terrorism in the 80s. Looming Tower will really help you understand that we facilitated terrorism by acting like a paper tiger for 20+ years in our response to terrorism and world events; Marines leaving Beirut after their barracks were bombed, Army leaving Somalia after the “Black Hawk” down incident, our lack of response to our Kenyan and Tanzanian embassies’ bombings and the Cole attack. Leaving now only completes the circle for Al Qaeda and their supporters. We will be viewed as incredibly weak willed and fickle. As those books demonstrate, that is exactly the type of reaction they want and have publicly declared.
I wish we could just leave, I really do. It sucks in every possible scenario. Many of my Marine brothers and sisters are fighting over there right now and I have lost several friends and acquaintances; most recently Maj Doug Zembiec who was an incredible Marine. It’s a nasty situation with volatile people and not a lot of ways to come out looking like a winner. However, backbone is the only thing that will ultimately achieve victory and protect Americans in the long term.
Dog pile on me if you wish please, just keep it civil and realize I’m just as frustrated as everyone with the situation and this administration and Congress. I welcome any opinion or solution that ultimately provides for a stable Iraq and even safer US.

CMS, California:

I was saying the same thing as you a year ago, but today I honestly don't think it could get much worse. First, let's remember that no one truly knows what will happen, all we can do is guess. I do think that there will be chaos, but there already is chaos. I do think there will be bloodshed, but I think the first target of Iraqi militias will be al Qaeda. I don't think we will see another Taliban situation, primarily because Iraq has three distinct groups all vying for power (I also disagree that Afghanistan 'ultimately facilitated 9/11'). I think that, eventually, the Iraqis will be forced to come together and work out a deal, even if that means splitting the land up into three states. I don't know how Iran and other neighbors will influence the process, as I simply am not that knowledgable.

I'll admit to being a Ron Paul man, but I am quoting him because I honestly think his logic is reasonable:

This wait-and-see attitude in Washington, and the promised reassessment of events in Iraq later on, strongly motivates the insurgents to accelerate the killing of Americans in order to influence the decision coming in three months. In contrast, a clear decision to leave would prompt a wait and see attitude in Iraq, a de facto cease fire, in anticipation of our leaving, the perfect time for the Iraqi factions to hold their fire on each other and on our troops and just possibly begin talking with each other.

If the insurgents-not the terrorists, but the Iraqis-really want us out, they will just work harder to kill our men to weaken our resolve. If they see us preparing to leave, however, the only reason an Iraqi would engage us is out of revenge.

Again, we don't know what will happen, and so I think our duty is to our own people. If we see the worst case scenario unfolding, we can appeal to the international community and go back in (with forces from countries who all have a stake in the region) to help the Iraqi government. But we shouldn't be paying to patrol the streets of Baghdad.

Mike from Hawaii:

Excellent Point! I agree with you completely!

DS, I completely agree with your comment about "handing the Democrats a filibuster proof Congress in 2008." I stayed up all night and watched this debate on C-Span, and found it both fascinating but also frustrating. I may sound like a broken record, but I'm still amazed at how the 'Senior GOP Senators,' continue to support the Bush 'stay the course' policy. These senators are obviously 'riding shotgun' for Bush, and appear as if they will provide 'political cover' for him at any cost. Well, you're right, that kind of loyalty will cost them dearly in the 08 elections. I have no doubt that it will also cost the GOP the Presidency!

Recommending a presidential candidate is a little different than recommending a ficticious book! What sort of people respect a woman who puts her face and ever changing body shape on the front cover of a magazine every month? I find that very self-aggrandizing and very re pulsive. Why didn't Oprah help children in her own backyard by starting a private school? I resent the fact that she went to Africa to do it. That proves that she must feel the children of the USA are a lost cause. She and her gal pal Gail should buy a one way ticket to Africa!

aloha Mike,

Apparently CNN edited (deleted) this. Can you please answer my question?

The war was a mistake, but we are there NOW and have an obligation to stablize the country before leaving. The fact is leaving prior to that would create the exact same scenario that happened in Afganistan (post-USSR occupation) which ultimately facilitated 9/11. It sucks I know, but it is reality. Decry my position all you want, but please tell me how you would avert a failed nation state.

DS,
If you are going to quote something please do not rewrite it in your own spin. The title was "Senate Republicans scuttle Iraq pullout plan," not “Senate Republicans filibuster ending the Iraq War.”

Aloha Mike,

Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my post. Can you please address the question I posed in it?

"The war was a mistake, but we are there NOW and have an obligation to stablize the country before leaving. The fact is leaving prior to that would create the exact same scenario that happened in Afganistan (post-USSR occupation) which ultimately facilitated 9/11. It sucks I know, but it is reality. Decry my position all you want, but please tell me how you would avert a failed nation state."

I await a civilized discourse on the subject.

Thanks.

Enustun, Indianapolis, IN ... "Just once could one of you left wing fanatics please come up with one, just one, original thought and or plan that would even remotley entice someone on the “right” side to switch over."

Why would we want Righties to switch over to our side? You 30-percenters are doing fine aren't ya?

Hell, I think you guys (and your President) are the gift that keeps on giving ... to the Left.

Thanks for making every day like Christmas!

David in Tulsa: Watch out for Reed vs. Reid. Yep there are two. Reed is the Senator that co-sponsored the amendment with Levin. Reid is the majority leader.

David from Tulsa,
You don't seem to understand that

1. The article didn't mention any Democrats voting against the leadership because there were no Democrats voting against the leadership! As you stated, Reid, THE LEADER of the Senate, voted against the measure so he can bring it up again. That doesn't qualify as a vote against the leadership. Lieberman is not a Democrat. No Democrats voted against the leadership. How then can CNN be biased? That doesn't make any sense.
2. The article merely lists the Republicans that voted with the Democrats, and features the vote by Collins because she had indicated to the media earlier that day that she was unsure what her vote would be. Again, where is the bias?

"It’s not my fault if you can’t see past your ideology and apparent blinding hatred of Bush to try and see any position other than your own. Demagoguery is demagoguery and bias is bias regardless of whether or not you are sympathetic to the cause."

I don't know where you are pulling the blinding hatred of Bush from, and nothing in my post, nor CNN's posting of an AP article, suggests demagoguery. I can recognize bias in the media- there is plenty of it. I, however, can also recognize the absence of bias.

Aloha Mike,

I'm glad someone took the time to read and reply to my post, but can you answer my question?

"The war was a mistake, but we are there NOW and have an obligation to stablize the country before leaving. The fact is leaving prior to that would create the exact same scenario that happened in Afganistan (post-USSR occupation) which ultimately facilitated 9/11. It sucks I know, but it is reality. Decry my position all you want, but please tell me how you would avert a failed nation state."

I welcome a civil discourse on the subject.

I agree with Mike from HI. "We" did not make this bed. Who among us is willing to pay 10 billion a month to lie in it? I am not saying that we should not take the plight of the Iraqis for granted or the security of our loved ones but $10 billion a month indefintely just in Iraq is unsustainable. The arguments that are marshalled in favor of stay the course is basically "if you think this is bad, just wait" but I honestly do not understand why we have to spend so much time and energy treading water in Iraq when we ought to be making things uncomfortable for al quaeda instead of sitting as judge and jury over who is right Sunni or Shia. In fact if you wanted to fight a superpower, you would borrow a page out of reagan's playbook and make it spend itself into oblivion. we cannot clear hold and build the whole country. we need to stop banging our head against this wall and start thinking about how to make terrorism irrelevant and ineffective.

There are 12 Democratic Senate seats up for reelection in 2008 and 22 Republicans. The GOP should get the message to not limit to debate on every issue. The republicans referred to a fillubuster as the "nuclear option" when the Democrats threatened it. The GOP does this on an every day basis.

There is nothing wrong with voting for a bill to allow it to be voted on, even if you are against it. I don't want us to pull out of Iraq but if there is enough support in congress to make it happen then let it be so. Congress is supposed to represent the people, filibustering only keeps the people's voices from being heard.

I also don't understand people who don't understand that this is everyone's war. If Iraq fails and genocide happens that is on everybody who wants to pull out, not just the people who started the war. The easiest position is not always the right position.

THE VOTES BY THE REPUBLICANS AGAINST THE MEASURE WILL COME BACK TO HAUNT THEM COME SEPT. WHEN THE RESULTS IN IRAQ ARE THE SAME AS THEY ARE NOW. THE SURGE WILL BE A BUST AND THEY COULD OF SAVED MANY SOLDIERS AND CIVILIAN LIVES BUT THEY ARE LIKE THE PRESIDENT, HARD HEADED AND INCAPABLE OF THINKING WHAT IS GOOD FOR IRAQ AND THE US . THANK YOU SENATORS HATCH AND BENNETT FOR NOTHING

Weren't the Republicans complaining about the Democrats' constant filibustering less than a year ago? I believe they were saying that filibustering was unfair, and that everything should be given a chance for an up or down vote. There was even talk of changing the Senate rules to eliminate filibustering.

I guess filibusters are only undemocratic when it's the other side using them.

"We made our bed and now have to sleep in it."

I didn't make the bed, and I will not sleep in it. The President and Congress are responsible, not me.

Why are people having a hard time with Collins' decision? She wanted to bring the bill to a simple up-or-down vote, even if it meant the bill would be passed. She wanted to get the theatrics over with and go home, assuming the president will veto it anyway.

In case anyone wonders why the tone in Washington is so intolerant and hostile, maybe that's just a reflection of the people - or at least people like Vinny from Boston.

Yep I was wrong that more Dems voted against their leadership than Republicans did, but the facts are:

a – The article did not mention at all any Dems who went against their party leadership - the AP reported that Harry Reid did, even though it was his proposal they were voting on, simply so he can resurrect it in the future. I would expect Lieberman to vote against it, but again no mention.

b – The report only highlighted the implied fracturing of the Republicans and their failure to maintain party discipline.

For what it's worth, I'm not a Bush fan and the Republicans deserved to lose their majority, given the way they became as corrupt as the Democrats they initially replaced.

It's not my fault if you can't see past your ideology and apparent blinding hatred of Bush to try and see any position other than your own. Demagoguery is demagoguery and bias is bias regardless of whether or not you are sympathetic to the cause.

Sen. Collins should be banned for life from serving in public office. What was she talking about? That has got to be one of the most idiotic statement I ever heard.

Oh I voted for it, but I really was against it??? Huh???

The only Democrat to vote Nay was Reid according to the Senate website. Maybe he pushed the wrong button?!

Also Johnson could not vote because he is still recovering from surgery.

Lieberman no longer can be considered a Democrat.

Just once could one of you left wing fanatics please come up with one, just one, original thought and or plan that would even remotley entice someone on the "right" side to switch over. I know it may be difficult for you, after all it would be original thought.

I am a little miffed that CNN uses censorship on these blogs.

“WE THE PEOPLE”

The media keeps reporting this as a 52-47 defeat of this bill. This false headline is confusing those like David in Tulsa. This is not what happened. Readers, please take the time to see what was truly being voted on and why the Democrats needed 60 votes for this amendment. CNN and FOX, please report with more accurate headlines.

David from Tulsa:
This has nothing to do with any bias on the part of CNN, but more to do with your ignorance of Senate procedure and inability to read the article.

"As predicted, Senate Democrats failed to win the 60 votes they needed Wednesday to end debate and forward an amendment to that chamber’s floor for a vote."

"More Dems has to oppose the measure than Republicans did."
That doesn't even make sense. The only "Democrat" that opposed the measure was Lieberman.

You have all the facts wrong and your argument doesn’t make any sense. What a Bush-esque post.

Both sides of the aisle are clowns. A waste of time and no productivity; if anyone ran a business like this, it would be bankrupt.

Their dirty little secret is that they are voting this morning on a payraise for themselves. Funny how that isn't getting the press so that people can revolt like we did with the amnesty bill.

They (R and D)continually play the public like a violin and a majority buy it. Wake up and don't be played off on each other any longer. Its time for moderates to unite for a viable 3rd party to start checking these charlatans.

The war was a mistake, but we are there NOW and have an obligation to stablize the country before leaving. The fact is leaving prior to that would create the exact same scenario that happened in Afganistan (post-USSR occupation) which ultimately facilitated 9/11. It sucks I know, but it is reality. Decry my position all you want, but please tell me how you would avert a failed nation state.

We made our bed and now have to sleep in it. Tough medicine to swallow, but Congress needs to be dealing with reality and not playing slumber party games with the future of our nation.

Since the Dems have a numerical advantage over the Republicans but the measure still failed, more Dems had to oppose the measure than Republicans did - why no mention of this or the names of those Dems who went against their leadership? Talk about bias.

And Collins voting for it while she was against it? That's a Kerryesque moment.

I hate that you called it a "pullout" plan. But even C-SPAN was having trouble last night properly characterizing the Levin/Reed amendment. The erroneously displayed that it would "require troop withdrawal within 120 days". Does the media feel that words like "redeployment" are liberal buzzwords or talking points? At least you didn't call it a "cut-and-run" plan or a "surrender" plan.

As expected...the so-called Republican protest was just for media soundbytes.

Where were Domenici, Lugar and all the others that voiced opposition to the Bush policy in Iraq?

What's with Susan Collins saying one thing then voting the opposite? Typical hypocrisy.

Put the vote where your mouth is...or shut up.

send the republicans sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, and grandchildren to fight the war. don't send my children it is not their war or my war to fight it is the repulicans war. when will the american public finally realize that. when the death toll starts to reach tens of thousands???? only a small minded person can think that this war is doing any good for this world. does everyone does realize this should be about the world and not america. ohhhhh that it is right it is hust about america plain and simple my mistake!!!!

As we proceed to the 2008 election, the Repellicans will be forced to vote again and again to reveal their misguided support for a war that has no end. 8 votes will dwindle to 0. I favor defunding the war, but the Dems lack the guts to repeat this politically deadly move when it appears 2008 will be a big win.

"Senate Republicans filibuster ending the Iraq War."

Remember that headline, it's what will hand the Democratic Party a filibuster-proof congressional majority in 2008.