http://www.baltimoregroupblog.com/2007/04/22/giulianis-immigration-shift/

another flip flop by guliani

Wow! And they called Kerry a flip-flopper! Rudy seems to forget that in the 1980s, he argued in favor of illegal alien anmesty! Now, he's against it because he running for Pres. What a panderer! And Republicans call Hillary one! That's a laugh!

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=7098&aid=19

this is priceless. guliani just a few months ago supporting amnesty. whose the flip flopper.

Anyone else remeber Nixon's secret plan to end the war?

Now that Giuliani is running for President he changes his tune to pander to the republican base. Mr.Giuliani re-enforces that adage: We know what you are,we're just negotiating the price.
The same with spades can be said about Romney.

If he can ACTUALLY implement this plan, I will vote for him!!! I would have to see how he plans to do it before voting and also his plan to get Congress to approve it. Or, better yet, get it on a nationwide ballot —that would be the best way to get it approved!!

Yeah right.
Just like Reagan, Clinton and both Bushes ended illegal immigration.

"we can end illegal immigration"
Yeah right! This is another sad attempt to gather votes from uninformed people who are quick to vote for candidates making promises like "no more taxes". It is clear he is playing on words instead of being an innovator of policy.

Giuliani vows to stop the flow of illegal immigrants? Seems like double talk to me as his law firm represented Cintra in the negotiations for the Superhighway Corridor throughout Texas in concert with the Security and Prosperity Partnership and the North American Union which is so dangerous to the sovereignty of the United States. Wake up America before you vote for a Presidential candidate

but how would Giuliani then meet his next wife?

That would be great but he doesn't have as much credibility as Romney on the issue.

This will be a BIG issue in 2008.

Since ALL Democrats have come out in support of complete amnesty for ALL illegal aliens, this stands to be a very strong issue for the Republican candidate in the upcoming election.

The overwhelming majority of Americans do not favor amnesty for illegal aliens and want something to be done to strengthen our borders.

Any help the Democrats might get on the healthcare issue will be erased by their amnesty position on this VERY important issue.

^haha ouch. Good luck with that Rudy.

I don’t presume to know about subway tunnels in New York or ethanol in Iowa. But I know a little bit about agriculture in California, and I know that Rudy Guliani doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

A lot of you folks out there see a posting from California and you think L.A. or San Francisco. But California is a big place, with just as many acres of farm land as Iowa. Looking out my back window the strawberry, artichoke and lettuce fields stretch for miles. I’m in the Salinas Valley, home of Cesar Chavez, Woody Guthrie and Steinbeck’s Grapes of Wrath. It’s also the front lines of illegal immigration. Forget the borders. They’re thousands of miles long and a fence just won’t work as long as there’s poverty in Mexico and jobs up here. On the other hand, there are only half a dozen big agricultural companies in this valley, so you could crack down on undocumented workers in a week if you really wanted to. Of course we don’t. If we did, a head of lettuce would cost you $15, and a basket of strawberries double that. We’re only 50 miles from the Silicon Valley, so the white kids from the coast all get high-paying tech jobs. They aren’t going to pick fruit for any price. Without illegal immigrant workers this country wouldn’t eat, and even George W. Bush is smart enough to figure that out. Unfortunately Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan and their ill-tempered ilk earn their pay by scaring the NASCAR set into thinking that hard-working Mexican farm workers are all part of some vast psychotic rapist al-Qaeda cell, and Romney, Guliani and company can’t wait to jump on the immigrant-bashing bandwagon. (How is this National ID card going to work, Mayor G?. Do we just walk up to anyone who looks Hispanic and ask to see their papers?) By the way, immigrant-bashing isn’t a figurative term in my neighborhood - it’s a daily fact of life. Right-wing radio hate speech has flesh-and-blood consequences.
Meanwhile, my liberal allies aren’t much better. Respect for human rights and concern for the welfare farm labor is no excuse for the sorry state of our porous borders. (Here’s a nice little story of unintended consequences: Crystal Meth is the scourge of our valley. It used to be made in small labs out of over-the-counter decongestants. When we banned those the meth started coming up from Mexico via organized criminals. So now we have a gang-war between the kids of established immigrant families and the kids of recent immigrants to decide who has the right to sell each other meth on what street corner. Salinas has had eight murders and countless drive-by shootings this year, and it’s a small town). Leaving the system as it is means the coyotes keep profiting from human misery, families keep dying in the desert or dashing across the freeways, and no one feels safe in their streets. Since most of the undocumented workers who come here for farm jobs are young single men and young single men of all cultures will cause trouble wherever they go, we’ve got no peace in the valley.

So we can’t have open borders and we can’t deport 12 million essential workers and we can’t trust the left and we can’t trust the right and there’s so much hypocrisy in the air you can barely see the sunlight. We need to fix the system, and the first step is for all of us, left and right, democrat and republican, to stop the demagoguery and fear-mongering and take an honest look at ourselves. We need to establish a populace of permanent American farm-workers with decent housing and benefits, starting with those decent hard-working people who are already here, regardless of their legal status. I don’t care if you can it amnesty or potato salad, there is no other possibility, so get used to it. ID cards and fences don’t pick vegetables, people do. But we also need to increase border security and crack down on over-stayed visas. (Skilled workers from Europe on expired visas are costing us a lot more than farm workers from Mexico and the Americas). We need to force Mexico to get it’s political and social act together and stop robbing its people, so they don’t need to come here to survive. We need to kick our own drug habits, which drive the whole world to violence. We need to build a national immigration policy based on fact not fear. And we need to show some respect for the people in the fields outside my window doing the hard work of putting food on our tables.

Or we can eat $20 tomatoes and blame Pat Buchanan.

Stop. Just stop it G. Just quit. It's over. No one wants you or McCain. Please leave so we can narrow down the field. Please stop talking.

David - after your long-winded diatribe against us racists and xenophobes, I simply have to express my own opinion. You see, I live over 800 miles from the border - I certainly do not see illegals working the fields. No, I see them taking the jobs that only 5 years ago were worked by Americans, including construction, roofing, banking, oh, yes, and even on the chicken lines for you-know-who. Guess what? Those jobs that used to provide a family with a comfortable living, no longer are available to American's. Yes, let's blame it all on the unscrupulous employers, and our incompetent government. But you know what? First and foremost, the blame rests on the shoulders of the illegal aliens who have made the CHOICE to break our laws and our soverignity. So you see, David, here in the heartland, we no longer care what you in California feel you need. At 800 miles away, we are feeling just what you and your liberal friends have spawned through your acceptance of this illegality over the years. We don't want your illegals, we don't want your gangs, and if it costs me $5.00 for a tomato - no problem. Next year, I'll grow my own. Break up the monopoly of large agricultural growers, and once allow small farmers to provide our fruits and vegetables. You see, on most small farms, the WHOLE family is involved in the success or failure of a farm, so they learn to work the fields at a very young age. But I'll give you this - if we decide as a society to allow a certain amount of additional (as we already allow many thousands every year) guestworkers to come in and work the fields for a short duration - you'll have my vote so long as their families are not allowed in with them, and after a certain amount of time (when the harvest is picked) they are sent back home. If they do not go back - the farm where they're working is completely responsible.

David your post was sensible and well thought out and I agree with you almost 100%. John McCain made almost this same argument and it got me to want to vote for him for President. I don't support "amnesty" but when you actually look at the facts doing nothing is de-facto amnesty as McCain pointed out. As always the most sensible solution is the best one and of course will be shot down by both sides of the aisle.

Why do they give romney such a hard time and yet I haven't seen one interview with Giuliani where they have gone after his numerous flip flops? I am a republican but I and many I know would never vote for Giuliani based on his record his character and his lack of integrity. I would rather vote for Obama if it came between the two.

As a longtime El Pasoan, I have worked alongside illegal immigrants from Mexico all my adult life. Every family fortune in the southwestern states was built on illegal immigration. Every southwestern company has figured the presence of illegal immigrant labor into its business model. Most of my neighbors - Mexican-American, Anglo, and Black - use illegal labor for yardwork, housework, and child care. I've noticed that Mexican Americans are just as willing as Anglos to exploit illegal labor using every dirty trick in the book to get away with it.

Every bite of food I eat was planted, harvested, cooked, and put on the plate by illegal labor - except for those rare occasions when my wife cooks. My house was built by illegal labor. So were my roads. So was the university I went to. So was my high school. The southwest is a product of Anglo management and Mexican labor. Now, the rest of America is becoming southwesternized.

Maybe in 1950 this problem could have been fixed. It wasn't fixed because we were all enjoying the benefits of cheap products and cheap services. In 2007, my fellow Americans, we are WAY past the point of no return — as we are on so many social problems. Deporting illegal labor would be as easy as sending all African-Americans back to Africa or deporting all Anglo-Americans back to England. It ain't gonna happen because it can't be done. We cannot herd them all - men, women, children, elderly - into boxcars, nail the doors shut, and ship them to Juarez.

We are in this situation because the leadership WE elected led us into it. WE voted for it, one way or another. We were very stupid and we were consistently misled - to put it gently. The sooner we all accept that, the better off we'll all be.

That said, where do we go from here? If we cannot separate ourselves from our less documented neighbors, then what CAN we do. There is no other choice than to become a hemispheric nation. We may as well accept the only realistic path open to us. Our national identity has changed irretrievably and irrevocably and it is going to change much more in the next fifty years than it has in the last fifty. Our only peaceful future has to be cosmopolitan, bilingual, egalitarian, and expansionist. As an Anglo, I don't want Anglo children to fall behind and become disadvantaged. I want them (and all other children) to be educated exclusively in Spanish until lunchtime and exclusively in English after lunch - no exceptions. I want immigrant children to be acculturated into American values at school: hard working, career oriented, fluent, intelligent, egalitarian, literate, and compassionate. I want them to all realize that all men and all women are equal under the law and in the workplace. I want to spend more - much more - on the education of all our youngsters so they will be better human beings than we are - much better. I want American values to be aggressively exported to Mexico with every persuasive, economic, and diplomatic tool at our disposal. I want America to develop a special relationship with Mexico as our sister nation. I want American corporations doing business in Mexico to pay Mexicans well, providing good health benefits and strong retirement plans.

What is the alternative?

Bush doesnt care that we have an illegal immigration problem. He ahs ALL the laws necessary to STOP it. For 6 1/2 years, he has chosen NOT TO!

David:

Great post! I made a similar argument on the Bloomberg blog right under this one.
There is a sensible solution to all of this…we were so close to common sense BIPARTISAN legislation for the first time in I can't remember when and then all the talk show hosts started screaming "amnesty" like Chicken Little screaming about a falling sky.

Pam has sincere intentions but her argument is not grounded in reality. Most lazy americans will not cut their own grass or grow their own tomatoes or do anything else that smacks of real physical labor. We have become an entitlement society that expects instant gratification. Without immigrant labor this economy as we know it crashes and burns.

Wake up folks. You can't continue to enjoy all of the things you take for granted without these folks as part of the workforce.

Giuliani has taken a bold stance and seems to be the only one with a plan. However, in light of his previous comments, I wonder what he really believes. It is impossible to know what this man stands for.

http://qritiq.wordpress.com

Giuliani, the guy who save the World from Terrorists!!LOL To me this clown did his job as mayor on 09/11, nothing more. Every other mayor would done the same. So let move on Rudy ,and start to tell the American People what you stand for as a Republican candidate. i was listen this clown yesterday on CNBC, answering a economic question. His answer was less than satisfying.

HEY YEAH, GREAT IDEA! LETS SEND ALL THE HARD WORKING PEOPLE BACK OVER THE BORDER. why does everyone care about skin color, everyone needs to chill out and think whats better for united states not themselfs

You can never end 'illegal' immigration until you make it horrible enough in the US for no one to want to come here anymore. That is NOT a free country. That is NOT the America that I want.

We only know about this Giuliani guy because he was New York's mayor during the 9/11 attack. Does that qualify him to be the President of the United States? Granted that anyone, or anything, is better than the one we have now, the U.S. still needs someone who shows more capability and leadership than this nobody who can't even manage his own life. Fellow Americans open your eyes!

Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what he vows because he can't win. He's a republican thats hated by religious leaders, you do the math.

flip flop, anyone??

Hey Pam, I'm a liberal and I agree 100%. A bvig part of it is the employer though, as soon as the below minimum wage jobs disappear so will the illegal aliens. If you pay someone a decent wage, they will do pretty much anything. Dont slam liberals in general to make your point. There are plenty of us that believe that you can be a liberal and have common sense about it. Just as I suppose that there are conservative Republicans who are not greedy selfish bigots - I just havent met any.

Judy,Judy,Judy,

Which way does the wind blow today? You created the sanctuary city and now you want to get tough on illegal immigration….

Start in New York and round up the 2-3 million that live there, hey you may actually fix your crime problem while doing so………………

Greg,
You may want to research Giuliani's position on illegal immigration while he was mayor of New York, since you feel it is such a "BIG" issue. You will find some of Rudy's proposals for providing social services to illegals are not exactly consistent with your assumptions.

Finally! Someone interested in the rights of Americans. This will get my vote.

I don't think anyone will take Rudy's present stand on immigration too seriously. He created a sanctuary city in New York, and he will solve the illegal immigration problem by creating a "sanctuary nation"

It would be nice to see the government have to remove all the laws they only enforce when they feel like it or can't get someone for the crime they want to prosecute them for. Then they would have to justify the fact they aren't enforcing half the laws on the books and expose what hypocrites politicians really are. They would also have to expose how little credence they give to the Constitution that they are responsible for upholding and enforcing.

Blah, blah, blah. Another promise from (insert name of desperate candidate here). Just like the promises of health care reform, Social Security reform, etc. How many times do we have to hear these promises to know that nothing even resembling a solution will be implemented.

Let's face it; it's every man (and woman) for themselves in this country. Has been for many years.

I love it when people throw out the "we need illegal immigrants to work our farms" especially when the argument is used in conjunction with the price of fruit and vegetables in the market place.

The premise of this argument is that it is okay to underpay the illegal immigrant because it allows us citizens to eat fresh foods on the cheap. How can anyone with even the slightest amount of morals argue that we must have illegal workers to keep the price of produce low? I liken the mindset to something just above slavery.

Rudy's plan for a uniform identification card has been argued before. The understanding behind such a program is that the illegal worker will actually sign up for such a card. It is unworkable. The illegal worker slides, or is smuggled, across the border and disappears into American society where employers welcome the cheap labor with open arms. To expect this illegal worker to suddenly apply for an identification card is naive at best.

Although the Bush Administration has some huge negatives going against them, I applaud their recent efforts to step up their enforcement of existing laws. When businesses are hit with large fines they might think twice about hiring an illegal worker. I'll happily pay the additional cost for a tomato knowing a legal U.S. citizen was paid to provide me with produce and not an underpaid subclass worker who gets no insurance benefits.

That is a great identification idea Giuliani, but you are day late and a dollar shot! How are you to get the 12 to 20,000,000 illegal immigrants here today illegally cooperating with our immigration laws of today and in our future? "That's a lot of people to walk over your border without being identified," he said. They have already broke many immigration laws just by stepping over our borders up too present day. Do not just spew from your mouth more and more double talk! Show some hard black and white plans on how you will get these millions of existing illegal immigrants too show their true colors.

We here talk of severing a tour of duty in our military branches of service in return for full US citizen ship. A move of that short would be a total un-repairable disaster for our country. This military idea it not bad idea once we consider many options first and foremost. All peoples are in The United States of America for good reason!

1. Must learn to speak our English language first; immigrants are in America, our military branches are neither of the Mexican nation nor other nationally militaries.
2. Join any military branch of choice upon acceptance includes male and female members of all families over the ages of eighteen (18); years and not over the age of forty-two (42); years with conditions of health and statute within their own communities.
3. Have each individual signed sworn statement of allegiants to our flag and The United States of America only with no other country prior to enlistment into our militaries.
4. Serve a term not too exceed four (4) years of voluntary service and no less than two years of active duty.
5. Than when each individual meets these qualifications under the guidance of our US Military leaders will receive their US Citizenship.
6. US just cannot afford to hand weapons’ to anyone who crosses our borders illegally no matter where he or she may originate from.

Thanks for all the great responses to my post above, especially Reality Check USA (I always love your posts), Terry, from El Paso, TX, and Patrick, from Denver.

To David, Gilbert Arizona who wrote:

“How can anyone with even the slightest amount of morals argue that we must have illegal workers to keep the price of produce low? I liken the mindset to something just above slavery.”

I agree totally, and I hope you see that’s not my position. I’m just saying illegal immigrants ARE picking our fruits. I think we should make them legal and pay them a living wage.

And finally a few point to Pam from Rogers, Arkansas who replied to my “diatribe” :
1) I’m not calling you a racist or a xenophobe, (but I think Pat Buchanan qualifies)
2) We don’t want our gangs, either. But the current system encourages them.
3) I’m not at all in favor of losing American construction jobs (not to mention manufacturing).
4) I applaud your willingness to grow your own, but there’s a lot of city folks who can’t or won’t.
5) The part of California I’m from IS the heartland. If you were here you’d see that in a second.
6) You are absolutely right about small family farms. I’m with you all the way on that one.

I think if the twenty people posting on this story were in control of our immigration policy we’d fix things in short order.

Take care, all.

Any producers and/or staff of national news networks had better not delete “US” and our post? If you continue to stifle free speech as you may, you shall as well merge with the “F” network!

“UNITED STATES of AMERICA” WE THE PEOPLE!!! TO FORM A MORE PREFECT…
I have not any claims of experience or knowledge when it pertains too subway tunnels in New York or ethanol in Iowa. But I know some information using first hand experience about construction in Nevada, and I feel an opinion that Rudy Guliani does not know what he is talking about when evolving issues of illegal immigration matters and cheaper labor. But he has the brass to speak out on the issues and that gutsy is needed in turbulent times. He may not be right on tract; but it’s a start. Just stay on tract, do not sway or change your positions.
A lot of you people out there see all the glitz from Nevada and you think Las Vegas, Carson City or Reno. But Nevada is a big place, with just as many acres of buildings as New York and Indiana. Looking out my office window the building stretches for miles. I am in the Vegas Meadow Valley, home of entertainment, foot ball gambling, Strip Malls and Strip shows of wrath. It is also the front lines for illegal immigrant migration out of California and Arizona counties. Forget the borders. They’re thousands of miles long and a fence just won’t work as long as there are corrupt officials, chaos, coos, and poverty in Mexico. With cheap construction labor jobs available just inside our borders. On the other hand, there are only half a dozen or so big major construction companies in this whole entire valley of Las Vegas. So it is very possible that US officials could crack down on undocumented workers most significantly in less than one week if our government producing the authority. Of course our government would not subject them selves in such manners. If we did, a head of lettuce would cost upwards of $15.00 (quote); and a pound of tomatoes double in amounts exceeding our incomes.
We are maybe approximately 35 miles from the California border, so the white kids from the coastal cities and towns of California all get high-paying tech jobs. They aren’t going to work hard construction labor or in the fields of some farm lands dominated with illegal aliens for a lower price any more. Without illegal immigrant workers this country would create more skilled American craftsmen and growers. Even George W. Bush is intelligent enough to figure out elementary economics. We may thank our lucky stars for people Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan and their ill-tempered styles earn their pay by scaring people into thinking they are not with the people of this great land. That our hard-working American labor can be bought out with cheaper labor by using illegal immigrants in replacing young American most say will not subject them selves to that kind of labor American’s will not perform. Illegal aliens could and might possibly be organized as part of a vast psychotic radical al-Qaeda cell.
Large majorities of people are steed fast and patiently watching the outcome of Romney, Guliani and company can’t wait to jump on the immigrant-bashing bandwagon for good reason. The cost to tax paying citizens to constantly supporting illegal workers outweighs their contributions’ preformed thought cheaper labor. As long as our ill-gotten employers are still finding excesses too continue hiring illegal workers is where the crack down needs to begin.
How will this National ID card be effective Mayor Guliani? May we just walk up to anyone we see on the street who may look Hispanic and/or likened too illegally immigrants in this nation of ours, plus be visional for homeland security at the same time? Ask to see their legal documents? By the way, immigrant-bashing isn’t a figurative term in Las Vegas, its daily occurrences of life. Left-wing liberalism speech has soften our own laws to the brink of devastating consequences for true Americans and when we should be holding our own American elite hostage. Ranging from small business to corporate giant employers for knowingly supporting illegal immigration and cheaper labor cost.

Meanwhile, our right wing conservative’s allies aren’t much better. Respect for human rights and concern for the welfare of agricultural/construction labor and any labor conditions across our nation is no excuse for the sorry state of our porous borders. This may be a true story in your town or city a story of circumstantial consequences: Crystal Myth today has become the scourge of the Las Vegas valley. It was produced in small private labs using over the counter decongestants. When over the counter were no longer readily available and had banned those medicines. The myth then started coming up from Mexico via organized crime. Now our nation has become plagued with have a gang related war between children of established illegal immigrant families here in the United States. These children of recent immigrants too decide who has the right to sell each others myth on whose street corner. Las Vegas has had murders and countless drive-by shootings this year, and it’s still a small town. Leaving the system as it is means the coyotes keep profiting from human smugglings and misery. Migrant families keep dying in the desert near our own borders or dashing across border lined freeways. Time has forgotten earlier days of security and has become that no one feels safe in their own streets any longer. Since most of the undocumented workers who come here for mostly agricultural and construction labor jobs are young single men and young single men of all cultures will cause trouble wherever they go, we’ve got no peace in the Meadows of Las Vegas.
The United States of American cannot continue in permitting options with open borders and we can start deporting 12 to 20 million illegal immigrant workers. We cannot trust the left and we can’t trust the right! There is so much hypocrisy in the air it is thick and obscured as the Pacific Ocean. One candidate running for our next presidential term needs to repair this system. The first step is for all of US, left and right, democrat and republican, to stop the demagoguery and fear-mongering and take an honest look at ourselves. We need to establish a populace of our young families that are al ready permanent residents. Provide our black and white students with educations and skills needed to succeed in their own lives.
Help America’s skilled labor workers with apprenticeship programs, decent housing and benefits. Example; help by starting with all our decent, hard working American people that live here in America already. Help our true American workers. Help those people regardless of their ethnic background as legal status citizens. I do care if you call it amnesty there is no amount of spare room for the persons entering this nation and/or staying here as illegal immigrants; Sorry there is no excesses. There is no other solutions too our immigration problems. So get used to it. ID cards and fences don’t pick vegetables, people do. The last statement is so true! Government subsidized farmland grants and interest free loans do not plant them either. So think about how many true blooded Americans you are shutting the door of opportunity on when you agricultural organizations threaten the American people with higher price fruits and vegetables because we hear and/or sounds if; growers may not profit from resorting racket of utilizing cheaper illegal immigrant labor!
There is also the need to increase border security and crack down on over extended visas. Skilled workers from other countries are here with expired visas are costing us a lot more than cheap Mexican labor and/or American. We need to force Mexico to get its political and social society set in motion towards reform. Stop Mexico’s government organizations and officials form stealing from its people. They do not need to come here to survive. We need to help our people kick their drug habits, which contribute with violence. We need to build a national immigration policy based on fact not fear. And we need to show some respect for the pride of the American people that once built outside office windows all across this great nation we call our homeland. Generations of people all the way back from WW II doing the hard work of building shelters too shield the US from the elements; protect US harm and placing food on tables for our families of this great nation. Is a Slap in the faces of our elderly citizens that serviced this nation in our past?
Or we can eat tomatoes of equal value and get rid of our greedy agricultural/construction organizations’.

Will you end divorce?