David, SD

My last post on this.

You are continuing to be part of the problem.

My original post on this thread called into account another poster's use of the word "factual" in bold for all to see.

Did you disagree that half-life calculations are short-term spectral observations for which extrapolations are made? Thereby, basing the 'factual' answers on an assumption. No doubt a well formed hypothesis, but not verified by empirical evidence. Your quote "approximate 4.54 billion year age is now part of the standard scientific model." Is true, no argument here, but two terms you use, approximate and model, refute the term "FACTUAL" which I tried to address in my original post.

In seimology we use tons of velocity models to compute travel-times. These models are under constant revision. Always looking for a better way or more accurate representation. Some models give better results regionally, some teleseismically, some are better for P phases, some for S, separate models are used for surface waves and there are multiple methods for their formulation.

I am well aware (as you note) that new discoveries are being made daily that reshape our thinking. So, to make the statement that the final answer is …
is irresponsible.

To say that since we have a new definition we can change the number of objects we call planets, but that other areas (e.g. age of Earth) are not open revision based on additional information we not only limit ourselves, it's disingenuous.

I will concede the point that the debate on this thread is about funding that is clouded by political beliefs and I strayed from that point.

Have a good day,

Chip

Chip writes: And just how many planets are in our solar system, the same as we thought 10 years ago?
That seemed to be supported by an overwhelming majority of the scientific community, seems there's been a little backtracking on that one.

You're comparing apples to oranges. New objects are contantly being found in the universe including our own solar system. The change in the number of planets is due to new discoveries and a new classification system. Scientists easily could have claimed that there are still 9 planets in the solar system just the same as many religious people still deny evolution.

But scientists took new discoveries into account and made judgments based on new facts.

Those who use religion to defend their position ignore or argue against new facts or discoveries so that their views won't have to change.

Adaptability vs rigidity. That's the difference.

Chip -

As I’m sure you are well aware, there have been no major changes in the solar system in the past decade. The system is in motion, as is the consensus of scientific thought. Astronomers changed their definition of the term planet, not their concept of how the system works. You’re right to note that science is constantly updated to match new discoveries and current data. That’s one of the things that distinguishes it from religion.

But some things in science are well-established, and there is no scientific movement to deny evolution or set the age of the earth at 6000 years. It is the attempts by Republican lawmakers to try to limit scientific inquiry by imposing their religious beliefs (or corporate justifications for polluting) on scientific research that is at the center of this debate.

You are continuing to be part of the problem.

David

As usual, you present good arguments, but limit yourself.

One side of the argument is supported by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community.

And just how many planets are in our solar system, the same as we thought 10 years ago?
That seemed to be supported by an overwhelming majority of the scientific community, seems there's been a little backtracking on that one.

Perhaps I'm not alone?

Keep questioning and keep up the thought provoking posts.

Have a good one,

Chip

Why is it a man who doesn't believe in evolution is immediately characterized by some here as one who also believes the earth is flat and gravity doesn't exist? The Old Testament states the world is round - see Isaiah 40. I don't necessarily support the man, but basically calling people who believe in Intelligent Design morons doesn't help you convince me you're more "open-minded."

Posted By Darrin, Columbia TN : August 28, 2007 5:45 pm
It's not because of his stance on evolution that people commented about his refusal to believe that the Earth is round and revolves around the sun. It's because of this site - http://blogs4brownback.wordpress.com/2007/05/18/heliocentrism-is-an-atheist-doctrine/

Also, Isaiah 40:22 states, "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

That's a CIRCLE, which is not sphere. Even if you read it as though it was a sphere, that contradicts other verses like Isaiah 11:12 & Revelation 7:1 that refer to the "Four Corners of the Earth." How are there corners on a sphere or circle?

Even the Catholic church supported the idea that the world was flat prior to Columbus' voyages and the Bible was created long before that the last time I checked.

Chip - I think you’re back-tracking. Your first post wasn’t quite as objective as you claim.

Jon - You’re putting some real limits on the question. Now we’re restricted to interference with private R&D that isn’t about stem cells or cloning or global warming? Like it or not, basic research in science is dependent on public funding. (i.e. the Manhattan Project, the Human Genome Project, the Apollo missions to the moon). The private sector will only pursue that which is profitable to shareholders (I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that). Sometimes government has to contribute to serve the public good.

I’ve made my points on this issue. I’ve got 200 students this term and I don’t have time to perform in an online version of “Inherit the Wind”. One side of the argument is supported by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. The other side is a set of heart-felt religious beliefs (or economic justifications) that just aren’t based in science. I think reasonable Americans can make up their minds which is which.

The discovery of the fact that the earth was round actually happened sometime around 13,000 years ago and was the basis for the beginning of the science of agriculture.Which enabled permanent housing,commerce,and civilization.Before that man was a "hunter gatherer" that migrated with his prey.So the concept of a flat earth and the denial of evolution on religious grounds are both equally subjects of ridicule.To distinguish at the level of Brownback seems a little silly.

David,

Thank you Mr. Science! You jumped quickly to a conclusion when I merely questioned the claim of FACTUAL evidence made by another poster. I thought professional scientists were supposed to be objective, thorough and analytical.

My post made no claim to either side of the supposed argument, did it? You assumed I represented a certain stance because I used a couple of buzzwords.

Yes, the 'widely accepted' age of Earth (today) is 4.54 billion years, but in the 1400's the 'widely accepted' rule was that Earth was FLAT.

You also tell me: I wish you and the Republican administration would leave science to the scientists"

I am a seismologist by trade, probably a bit less to do with Earth than your field.

If you'd like me to send you some data, I will. Then you can possibly give me some pointers on tuning the detection algorithm I'm working with.

So, I don't really think my attitude is the problem. If you accept everything because it's widely published and don't continue to ask questions, discovery will cease.

Objectively yours,

Chip

Posted By Darrin, Columbia TN: "Why is it a man who doesn't believe in evolution is immediately characterized by some here as one who also believes the earth is flat and gravity doesn't exist? The Old Testament states the world is round - see Isaiah 40. I don't necessarily support the man, but basically calling people who believe in Intelligent Design morons doesn't help you convince me you're more "open-minded."

Your point regarding the absurd notion that because Brownback advocates intelligent design he must also believe the world is flat is very valid. I agree that those type of statements do not do the discussion justice nor do they endear opposing views.

I don't agree with your old testament interpretation however. Isaiah 40 really doesn't state the world is round. It states that God is enthroned above the circle of the Earth. The flat worlders recognised the world was a circle, a flat circle. The ancient Chinese used to believe the flat Earth traveled around the sun on the back of a giant tortoise while Europeans still thought the world was the center and everything revolved around it. The tortoise was also the Chinese explanation for Earthquakes.

Brownback was a panel member on the Larry King Live show a while back. The discussion was whether intelligent design should be taught in schools. One overlying issue during that discussion was the missing links in the fossil record. Of course the same question could be asked where are Adam and Eve? Everyone seems to be looking for the missing links but no one is looking for Adam and Eve. One glaring fact I wanted to scream at the television set was: the male Y chromosome passes from father to son unchanged. It does not mix with the mother's DNA because the mother does not have an Y chromosome. A male can be traced back father to grandfather through generations based on the unchanged Y chromosome. This test was used on a tribe in Ethiopia who declare themselves decendants of Aaron, Mose's brother (saw that on the Discovery channel). Those Ethiopians were actually proven to be related to Priests who also declare themselves decendants of Aaron because they shared the same Y chromosome.

So…if we all came from one man, Adam, every male would have the same Y chromosome. We don't.

David ~ Salinas,

I previewed your articles… which fail to address.. how is Bush restricting PRIVATE R&D in this country?

You continue pointing to how Bush has restricted FEDERAL dollars, or bring back the Global Warming issue.

HOW AGAIN has this stopped PRIVATE research?

wouldn't it be funny if Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Paul were all just mischieveous, immature guys that wanted to play a joke which everyone has fallen for 2000 years later? lol…
anyways, the only reason evolution isnt the most accepted form of science is because there isn't some book written 2000 years ago smacking you over the face blatantly telling you its truth!
a professor I had at Caltech once told me, if you don't believe in evolution, give me your cellphones, your not appreciative enough to own them! EVERYTHING IS IN THE PROCESS OF EVOLUTION! this is far greater than just humans. Education, technology, biology, clothing, business practices, EVERYTHING evolves!
It's not political, its logical. Humans are faster, stronger, react quicker, our brain develops faster, our chest cavities are larger, our hearts are larger, muscle tissue is larger from even 50 years ago (even though if you want more drastic measurements, you can go further back in time).

Jon asks; “what EXACTLY is Bush doing to interfere with R&D in this country? (other than not providing FEDERAL FUNDS for embryonic stem cell research and ban on cloning)”

Jon -

In addition to denying funding for one of the most promising lines of research towards a cure for dozens of major diseases afflicting the American people, the Bush administration has interfered with basic R&D that conflicts with the religious beliefs of it’s base and the financial interests of it’s contributors. The list is a long one, and my personal knowledge is confined to my own field of neuroscience. If you are really interested, and not just trying to score political points, I’d recommend reading “The Republican War on Science” by Chris Mooney. Here’s an excerpt:

http://www.waronscience.com/excerpt.php

And here are a few other relevant articles:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.phpaz=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1698475

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut?pid=1585

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2004/10/the_bush_war_on.html

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/01/06/nature/index.html

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/15148655/the_secret_campaign_of_president_bushs_administration_to_deny_global_warming

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.htmlres=9F05E3D9123AF93AA25753C1A9629C8B63

This argument shouldn’t be about partisan politics. The denial of scientific reality is a threat to the health and welfare of all Americans.

David ~ Salinas

You wrote, "As a working scientist I can testify that the Bush administration’s war on science is no myth. Republican roadblocks to fundamental research and open disclosure of information are facts of life in today’s science community."

Has Bush banned ALL research on stem cells? NO

Is there federal policy which prohibits private firms from researching ALL forms of stem cell research? NO

So tell us all - what EXACTLY is Bush doing to interfere with R&D in this country? (other than not providing FEDERAL FUNDS for embryonic stem cell research and ban on cloning)

I really wonder where Mr. Brownback has got his head stuck into. For the past six years there has been a war on everything that does not please the views of the extreme right of the Republican party. One more reason why I will never ever waste my vote again in republican causes.

Chip -

The widely-accepted age of 4.5 billion years for the Earth is not based on the relatively short half-life of Carbon-14, which is useful for more recent biological dating.. Instead it is based on radiometric age dating of the earth’s oldest minerals (zircon crystals) and comparisons to similar dating of lunar rocks and meteorites. These figures are cross-checked between uranium-235's decay to lead-207 (with a half-life of about 700 million years) , and uranium-238's decay to lead-206 (with a half-life of about 4.5 billion years). The approximate 4.54 billion year age is now part of the standard scientific model.

I wish you and the Republican administration would leave science to the scientists, or at least take a college course (please not mine) before publishing uneducated and misleading comments. Our children are falling behind the rest of the world, and attitudes like yours are the reason why.

Wow David from Arizona,

I can't believe I actually agree with you on something…This is amazing. You made a great point on the dinosaurs, I always bring that up when people try to thrust their religious belief on me. Great post.

And to Al from Illinois…you have to get used to it…99.9% of the articles that have either Obama or Clinton in the text, even if they aren't the main subject in the article, the neo conservatives will jump on them like white on rice!

Posted By Al, Belleville IL: "10% of entries posted here were solution oriented thanks to Mstessyrue and Bob; all the others were vicious attacks against the other party. I thought that is what we paid Congress to do. I am surprised that opinion polls of congress are so low when they act so much like us…"

I'm a Republican. There was no vicious attack. You simply do not want to acknowledge the reasoning behind the opponents to intelligent design.I think Brownback is doing this country's children a disservice by advocating intelligent design over the theory of evolution. I understand it contradicts his theological beliefs but that is what church is for, not public school. That is where the notion of a war on science comes from. Considering the actions already taken by Brownback in his own state I'm actually flabbergasted that the man would deny the comments made by Clinton.

Here is a very simple example: The furthest galaxy that can be seen by telescope from the Earth is approximately 13.7 billion light years away. That means it took 13.7 billion years for the first glimer of light from that galaxy to reach Earth. If some creator made the heavens and the Earth as described in the bible then he/she/it would have to have made the photons, or light particles, already in motion from that distant galaxy just so it can be seen from Earth. Otherwise we would not be able to see that galaxy. The light would not have reached here yet. We would only see objects 5 to 6 thousand light years away because that's how old the universe is according the theologians.

That doesn't even take into consideration issues such as dinosaurs and man existing at the same time, although some people believe dinosaurs are really a concoction made up by fanatic scientists.

This is why many people say intelligent design flies in the face of science. It defies all logic and the laws of physics.

Someone wrote:

"FACTUAL evidence establishing the Earth's age at over 4.5 billion years"

What is the factual evidence based on? If it's carbon or radiometric dating, can you explain how that is done?

The methods are based on 'half-life' or decay of a substance. The half-life of carbon-14 is published widely as about 5,730 years.

To submit an accurate statement, a scientist must make observations and document them. To my knowledge, no one has lived long enough to do this. Is the decay linear?

So, we are left with a short time period in which some decay is observed (with measurement instruments whose calibration may vary) and an extrapolation made to complete the formula.

This inference is made in a laboratory setting with no consideration given to environmental influences on the substance. Does decay happen more rapidly under severe compression or strain? Does heat have an effect?

If we took a piece of iron, cut it in half and left one piece in Arizona and the other in Florida, would they be the same in 10 years?

Big-Bang, something out of nothing…miracle or not. That belief also requires a substantial amount of faith.

Happy Wednesday,
Chip

As a side note to this issue concerning a “war against science,” did you ever hear of Dominionism, the political philosophy that maintains that the US government should be based on the precepts of the Bible?

You can bet that such a theocracy would pick and choose which parts of the Bible it intended to enforce, and it would NOT be the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Now, which political party are the Dominionists associated with?

Thank goodness, it appears that Americans are FINALLY getting wise to this NEO-CON fraud.

To heck with Science. Bring back the Inquisition.

The Busch administration and the NWO, skull and Bones are all waging a war on the whole United States. They're building concentrations camps right here underneath are nose (800+) all are manned, operational, and the only thing missing is people indside of them. They're also building boxcars (3 tiered) with shackles and chains, all brand new, thousand of these cars have been built.For what? for who? when? Lets forget about the war in Iraq, and Afganistan an let
s focus on what in the world is getting ready to happen right here beneath are nose.

To the poster just above… "Reasoned Brownback discourse?" Is that what you call Brownback's statements that we should not teach evolution in Kansas's schools?

Is this "reasoned" candidate the same that follows the neocon talking points that dinosaurs and man co existed?

Is this the same guy that tried to get fossils pulled from foreign countries archives because they did not support his religous doubts in evolution?

Didn't he and other neocons offer millions to Ethiopia not to display Lucy, the missing link?

If you were the "good christian" you claim to be sir, you would be offering the poor people of the world millions of dollars regardless of their fossil record.

the only place Brownback seems a reasoned intellectual is in the comic books where he belongs.

If we let Stem Cell Research go on even though it demands ending a viable, otherwise healthy human life, then we're not far from people being pursued to "donate" day-before-birth 'fetuses' to science. I'm sure that science could indeed learn a ton by taking these nottababies apart in the lab, and using their organs and tissue. But someone does have to draw the line somewhere. Most people here would agree that day-before-birth-baby dissecting is sickening. But, that's how you boil a frog, turn the water up slowly.

We first started talking about aborting unwanted babies (under the laughable defense of rape and incest–what's that 1/2% of the cases?) and now, we're talking about partial birth abortion, where a perfectly healthy baby who suddenly doesn't fit in with a recent household budget review can be delivered, and have her head crushed in the birth canal. They're worried about lethal injection being painful?

One of the "complications" of partial birth abortion in the medical books is something called "live birth."

Maybe it's time we all look back to our roots as a nation, and a people, and stop turning our nose up at religion. At least we'll be reminded to not kill.

And we'd also be reminded to be nice to each other (I think that was Jesus' main point) So, let's stop calling people stupid and discuss the issue. Their position may be ill informed (as is the opinion of most people on evolution is merely a parroting of what they were "taught.")

Most of the people I know doing primary research on the topic admit that there is indeed a pronounced suspicion of the validity of evolution as taught today, and it IS good science to question science. Don't worry, if it's true, the facts will bear it out.

I have the utmost respect for the well-intentioned, extremely well educated men and women on both sides of the evolution/Intelligent Design dialog, and little for the bumper sticker propagandizers on each.

Hey, if evolution happened the way we think, don't worry, sooner or later we'll find irrefutable evidence for it (like the thousands of missing links between each and every known species)

And if the intelligent Design camp is right, then archaeology and paleontology will continue to find things thad don't quite fit into the current model and I'm not one to squash that debate. Let them tell both sides of the story, the truth outs.

And if there is a God, He won't be jealous that we questioned His Authority, He'll be proud of us for checking his references

Why is it a man who doesn't believe in evolution is immediately characterized by some here as one who also believes the earth is flat and gravity doesn't exist? The Old Testament states the world is round - see Isaiah 40. I don't necessarily support the man, but basically calling people who believe in Intelligent Design morons doesn't help you convince me you're more "open-minded."

"intellectual Brownback discourse" is a good one.Is there someone in the Brownback family that isn't mentally retarded?Can he take Sam's place?

When you get diagnosed with Cancer you find out that your body is the battle ground for the War. Prepare to be poisoned, burned, or cut

Typical shrill Clintonesque rhetoric vs a reasoned intellectual Brownback discourse. Hilary must practice in front of the choir for her to actually believe that common people buy her nonsense.

Here's someone who truly has a plank in his eye.

This is the same guy who fought to have evolution banned in Kansas schools?

Didn't he also fight to have the round-earth theory and the earth-revolving-around-the-sun theory banned, too?

Incredible!!!

10% of entries posted here were solution oriented thanks to Mstessyrue and Bob; all the others were vicious attacks against the other party. I thought that is what we paid Congress to do. I am surprised that opinion polls of congress are so low when they act so much like us…

Yeah, evolution doesn't exist, and neither does the war on science.

Enough said.

I am a republican and I am sorry to say that this party was never "anti-science" until this breed of ultra conservatives led by Bush came to office. These jokers have brought faith based initiatives in every aspect of running this country. Take Tom Delay on Schivo case, Jim Inhoff who says global warming is hoax, and that Dr. senator Mr. Frist on stem cell and now Mr. Brownback who brings politics on evolution theory are all phony and their ideas don't make sense. That is the reason the kids in this country lag so much behind the rest of the world. Even Mr. Romney who seemed alright when he was governor wants to join in their camp. He wants to bring faith in every White House policies. What is happening to grand old party? I would rather cast my vote to a progressive candidate like Hillary than to these jokers who trash science and oppose every opportunity of progress to mankind.

Albert Einstein was not a godhead.Nothing was ever invented through the practice of rejecting logic and reason.This phenomenon is a biological brain defect the Mr. Brownback exemplefies.

Just a question about that "God" thing. Whose God are we referring to? Methinks some clarification would be helpful.

Albert Einstein and his fellow physicists would often say they did believe in God

Einstein and most physicists that most people could name (Hawking, Gell-Mann, Sagan, Weinberg, Greene, Feynman) did not believe in 'God' in the sense of a personal god that cared about what humans did. At best, they were deists but even that is probably going too far for an Einstein or Hawking.

When physicists use the word 'god' they are talking in a metaphorical/symbolic sense. As a biologist, I will occasionally say something along the lines of 'this systems appears designed to…' but I do not mean 'designed' in the sense that creationists mean.

The idea that a man who claims not to 'believe in' evolution (as if someone needed to 'believe in' gravity or thermodynamics or evolution) also claims that there's no war on science is bad comedy at best.

This coming from the man who advocates the Discovery Institute's proposal to teach intelligent design in public schools even though it will open a huge can of worms. The discussion becomes one not of science but one of who gets to define the intelligence behind the design. My creator may not be the same as yours.

In other words it becomes a theological debate, which is better suited for church and home.

Pat from Huntington Station,

Tell me you don't know that the dinosaur bones came from Noah's Ark. How can you believe otherwise? (end sarcasm)

Can some of you please tell me just what scientific progress has been stopped by the Bush administration. Stem Cell research is more funded than ever, just not be public tax dollars which would be funding projects that many of us feel is immoral. Global Warming one major strike against my argument. Although to be fair to Mr. Bush I have never heard him say that he doesn't believe in global warming or that it isn't man made, he just doesn't agree that government imposed rules is the answer. I don't agree with this but that is a fair argument to take. Please tell me what scientific progress he has stopped?

Just what we need: a Bush apologist and anti-science nutcase like Brownback.

Ignoring blatant actions by the Bushies to counter science at every turn - be it at the EPA, stem cell research, the non-approval of drugs like tetrabenazine that helps with horrible diseases, the moronic denial of global warming - what ol' Sam has done for himself with his brainless remarks is immediate disqualification as a suitable candidate for president of the U.S.

We've had enough of liars and religious extremists. Go away, Sammy.

As a working scientist I can testify that the Bush administration’s war on science is no myth. Republican roadblocks to fundamental research and open disclosure of information are facts of life in today’s science community.

Some of this stems from moral assumptions decidedly outside the mainstream of American values, including opposition to stem cell research, opposition to sex education, removing information about condoms from HIV web sites, and attempts to teach “intelligent design” in science classes.

Other differences are entirely economic, including allowing logging, mining and drilling in national forests, slashing cancer and other medical research funding, and cherry-picking data as well as outright lying about global warming. Former oil-industry executives are allowed to re-write scientific reports from within the White House. The information government scientists are allowed to publish is that which supports the business interests of Republican contributors. That may be good for Exxon and Haliburton, but it’s not good science.

The Union of Concerned Scientists, an independent organization of distinguished scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates and science advisers to past Republican presidents made this clear in their report "Scientific Integrity in Policymaking," Kevin Knobloch, President of the Union, said: "We found a serious pattern of undermining science by the Bush administration, and it crosses disciplines, whether it's global climate changes or reproductive health or mercury in the food chain, or forestry — the list goes on and on,"

Unless we allow American scientists to do real research, publish real results, and teach real science, America will fall behind the rest of the industrialized world in the global marketplace. We can’t afford that.

The Science war is a myth to these neocons only because ALL science is a myth to them. They would rather use the politics of fear and division through their right wing religious beliefs to keep themselves in power, because they know that if people ever actually started to think for themselves they wouldn't have a chance of being reelected.

We have become an embarrassment to the world through ideological wars both foriegn and domestic. We throw around catch phrases like "war on terror" or "war on science" because it's the only thing our backward thinking Republican Congressmen can enunciate clearly, because otherwise they would sound like the cave men that they no doubt are.

How dare they try to turn back history, rewrite history, for their own benefit.

There was another regime that tried to do much the same sort of scare tactics and heavy use of propaganda.

Thank you very much but a Third Reich was enough, we don't need a Fourth one.

Do not try to tell me there's no battle to decide the hearts and minds of America. Do not try and tell me that there is not a battle against reason, compassion and common sense versus ideology and hate. Do not try to tell me that Senator Brownback knows anything of real life pain and suffering because if he did, he would have acted in time to save the thousands upon thousands of lives that stem cell research could have saved, relatives who contract diabetes, cancer, parkinsons, alzhiemers, and many other serious ailments, instead of playing to his base and not even bothering to read the bills that he himself no doubt voted against.

Those bills recently passed do not even suggest the use of embryonic research, they would allow research to turn ADULT cells into stem cells. But Mr. Brownback and others of the Bush ilk would have you believe otherwise because it is simply more politically expedient than dealing with reality.

Science funding is insufficient in the US. However, you can't add money for science while you are mortgaging your future to fight terrorism.

As an aside: The Soviet Union collapsed because of our conspiracy with our ally, Saudi Arabia. We forced an arms race onto the Soviets and Saudi Arabia flooded the market with oil so the Soviet Union could not raise money to fund it. They went bankrupt. If we are in an arms race with the terrorists and we spend $1 million for every $1 they spend, we can go bankrupt too.

Right now an increasing proportion of scientists in the US are foreign born. That is why it is important to keep immigration going strong. The US students entering science are, unfortunately, too lazy to compete and ill prepared (turns out that video games, myspace, and reality TV don't prepare you for science education).

The EU and China are increasing science budgets as we do our best to try to tred water. Some Chinese born faculty in the US are choosing to return to China because science is better funded there and they can make great salaries. Look at the premiere science journals. Look back and see how most of the research articles used to be written by US scientists. Look today at how many are written by non-US citizens. It used to be that scientists would go to international meetings and have the most impressive talks. Not so, anymore. Our top labs are still the top, but the rank and file scientist is no longer at the top - and maybe not even competitive. You can be a genius, but if you can't pay for people to work in your lab, you won't be productive.

The US is losing its position as the world's leader in technology and innovation. If you doubt that, you are in denial. We need to start educating people to make the choice, accept that we are no longer the strongest, smartest, hardest working nation n the world, or step up to the plate now, and really redouble our effort at education. Our culture tells us that sports figures and entertainers are the most important and admired people.

We tell our children that scientists are losers in our culture. Scientists believe that the forces of evolution explains the changes in the distribution of genetic differences in populations. Some misguided and misinformed people think that somehow that is against their religion. The Pope accepts it, why wouldn't everyone for God's sake? The message we send to our children is that scientists are bad people. That spells the end of America as a leader and a dominant country in the world.

There is a lack of understanding about science in Washington. I am a scientist and it is evident in the rhetoric that is going on. However, cancer research is the most funded area in science research. It is hard to get grants unless there is some correlation to cancer. I think there should be more money in science but for all science not just cancer research!

I am a diplomat on American soil. I cannot vote.

I will scan papers' comments starting tonight. On the face of it though it doesn't sound as the kind of positions thet will attract much ink.

Sam said he doesn't believe in evolution, and his understanding of the law and facts of stem cell research proves that he is not a higher life form deserving of higher office.

Brownback wouldn't lie to us, now would he? Hmmmmmmm? A guy from Kansas doesn't have a problem with scientific facts like evolution, gravity, and entropy, now does he? No, I bet he's telling us the truth.

No war on science by Bush and co.? Puhleeze Sen. Brownback! This coming from the same guy who doesn't believe in evolution, and thinks the world and the universe are only about 5000 years old, despite FACTUAL evidence establishing the Earth's age at over 4.5 billion years, and the age of the universe much longer than that! No wonder this country is falling behind in the sciences as compared to Europe and China! Question Sen Brownback, if Adam and Eve had only two sons, and one killed the other, and there's no indication in the bible they had a daugter with whome the surviving son could commit inscest, then how did the rest of humanity come about? I guess the dinosaurs are a liberal-concocted conspiracy as well!

Senator Brownback saying there is no war against science and that he would fund science is extremely funny. This coming from a guy who's very own state denounces science and probably thinks the world is flat.

Imagine all of the neat scientific breakthroughs we could have acheived as a nation in the last 7 years. Thanks Bush.

"What really bothers me," Clinton said, "is that we are on the brink of so many medical breakthroughs right now [and] the current administration has literally called a halt to the war with cancer."

Ahhh yes - good old Clinton politics. Remember how her husband (Bill Clinton) used "the children" and how republicans were out to hurt "the children"?

Now Bush and Republicans are PRO-cancer?

A vote for Hillary is a vote for no-change, politics as usual.

The man who doesn't believe in evolution and fought to get his state, Kansas, to change their educational system to reflect that belief doesn't believe there's a war on science??? But he thinks there's a war on religion???

Can he just drop out soon? His stupidity could be contagious.

What a ridiculous assertion.Mr. Brownback is one of the foremost "god's Warriors" in congress.This individual has little or no grasp of reality.He actually believes that the earth is still flat.That dinosaurs walked with man,etc.How in our society is it possible that people like this are taken seriously at all? The state of Kansas has been the brunt of so many jokes as a result of these looneys,that the residents face ridicule when they travel.They've taken back their school boards,now it's time for you to take back your congressman,this guy's unacceptable.

How many people feel that Science and God can't live together. Not very many if they have studied either to any extent. Albert Einstein and his fellow physicists would often say they did believe in God and I personally think that Science is the same thing as Chinese companies stealing our products and then mass producing knock off items. God created the Universe and Scientists are reverse engineering it to better understand it. Maybe the library of congress needs to get more books on Religion and Science so our Representatives know a thing or two before they open their mouths or put pen to paper.

As the presidential debates heat up and tensions increase, the candidates need to be reminded of the critical issues that still trouble our society today. Issue such as global poverty needs to be address by our candidates to each other and to the general public. As one of the nations that has pledge to fulfill the goals of Millennium Development Project, whose goal is the elimination of world hunger and poverty, the Bush Administration has not shown any substantial action to bring this fundamental problem to a stop. According to the Borgen Project, dedicated to fighting and ending Poverty around the world, only $19 billion dollars are needed annually to stop world wide poverty, hunger and malnutrition. However, more than $340 billion dollars has been poured into this “war on terror.” And each year, our country has a military budge of $522 billion dollars. It's time for a new leader who will be addressing an issue that affects 1.2 billion people everyday worldwide.