Though it is not a slam dunk the party hierarchy is hoping to push Hillary through. She is like Bill in that the insiders will have the most influence with her in power. That is what the modern primary is all about finding the right candidate that will allow the most behind the scenes control.

For those less careful thinkers who like to call anything and everything done by the government "socialism", here is the first three sentences from the Wikipedia article on Socialism.

"Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community for the purposes of increasing social and economic equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct — exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils — or indirect —exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state or community ownership of the means of production."

What democrat has lately proposed governmental ownership of the means of production? I suppose Hoover Dam and the Tennessee Valley River project might be considered socialism. No Democrat is proposing that the government build new dams, except in New Orleans, but those levees will not be used to generate electricity.

Leftists (there are no more Liberals) are way too free with the words "fascist" and "racist" whereas Conservatives see every government action as "socialism" or "communism," except the many governmental services that benefit them personally.

Words have meaning. Without meaning, your words are nonsense.

all states in violation of political party rules should be held in contempt for attempting to disrupt such an important election in 2008

Elizabeth,

"Wooo… Isn't the US supposed to be a
DEMOCRACY?"

Actually, no, it isn't supposed to be a democracy. The US is a republic with democratic principles.

Steve,

"Unless we go to a national primary, having all 50 states vote on the same day (yes, including New Hampshire and Iowa too), the 2012 primaries will start around October 2011."

Here's another 'actually' for ya… this wouldn't help too much either as unlike New Hampshire it is written into the Iowa State Constitution, recognized and respected by both the RNC and DNC, that the state must constantly maintain the first in the nation primary. Thus a move by all other states to Oct would force by state law a move by Iowa to Sept.

Anonymous (use your name if you want to post, at least have the integrity to stand by your words right or wrong)

"A couple of guys here blamed the Clinton machine for the Florida's decision to move up the dated because, in their views, Hillary will lose in the primaries of Iowa, New Hampshire & South Carolina. What a bull!"

Being in one of those states, and the main democratic/independent stronghold in the otherwise republican stat, don't believe everything polls tell you. Hillary is not exactly the most popular candidate in this part of the state.

and finally, Lynn,

"If not, why have a two party system?"

And yet another 'actually'… we don't have a two party system. The democratic and republican parties along with the favorable attention they receive from mass media outlets would definitely lead one to draw the same conclusion you have, but the US was specifically created as a government of no political parties.

Gregor, Sacramento:
I'm glad you can laugh at this, but the actual truth is that Florida agreed to all of the conditions outlined by the DNC a YEAR ago, and then tried to change the date a MONTH ago. The sad thing about this is… The residents of Florida will not be heard. I can't imagine anyone in Florida being happy with that decision.

The hanging chad circus temporarily grew Florida's economy. Maybe they're trying to do it all over again.

Oh yeah…it's the Florida "voters" fault…morons…

Oh my, the following statement from a Republican who I bet voted for Bush…the king of no common sense impulsiveness. LOL

It doesn't boggle MY mind. They're Democrats. Democrats have never been good at thinking things through and they ALWAYS act on impulse rather than common sense. It's awesome!

Posted By Gregor, Sacramento, CA : September 22, 2007 9:41 pm

Although blame may lay with many people, the source of this problem is Charlie Crist. Charlie Crist is the one that advocated for having FL primaries on Jan 29th.

Anyone happen to notice which party in Florida is hurt infinitely more by having early primaries? Anyone happen to notice the party Charlie Crist is in???

It is clear that the plan is to have Florida being talked about more then any other state on and after their Jan 29 Primary. The Media will constantly talk it up as a controversy because the DNC promises that their votes won't count. Florida will institute a court challenge to insure it is front-page news. That media coverage will boost whoever is the winner of Florida’s DNC Unrecognized primary at that time. The plan is to make that winner be Hillary. Since all Dems agreed not to campaign in Florida, So Hillary would win Florida’s primary since she has the most name recognition because of Bill Clinton.

This entirely orchestrated political move is to give Hillary some momentum, as she would have just lost Iowa, NH and S.C. Primaries.

Howard Dena who I do NOT believe is a non-intelligent person. Is either a non-intelligent person or in on this plan. When he plays into the totally Republican run Florida decision to move their Primary by grand standing and taking away their delegates. He plays his part in the scheme. So is he a non-intelligent person or is he in on the plan?

I would think his utmost priority FOR NOW would be to move the primaries around to make sure all states delegate and votes are included. ANY other actions should be saved for after the General election when true dialog can be had on how to do the 2012 election. That’s what an intelligent DNC leader who is not part of this scheme would do. To Howard Dean.. Driving a car with a nail in the tire eventually will result in a blow out. (U should know this from experience in your 2004 Presidential bid.) As Hillary CANNOT win the General election!! Howard,You are MISCALCULATING AGIN!! You should put pride aside and do what’s right and make all this work fairly!!

Go Florida Go.

Gee, thanks FL democrats! Now my vote's pointless and there's really no reason for me to be a Democrat anymore.

Thanks a lot, really. I mean, you just do so much to encourage young voters like me this way.

Florida seems to be a thorn in our side. The nonsense that comes out of that state. We would not be in this mess if they had invested the money in their voting machines. Their scandalous hanging chads caused havoc on this nation. I have no sympathy for them.

Um… Anon. I am not a Republican and telling everyone Hillary is behind this. Also, I don't know what polls your refering to in Iowa that shows her breaking away. You know she's going to lose it…. Iowans are too smart for her lying and backstabbing. Maybe that passes the smell test in New York but not in most of the rest of the country….. Get a clue. Hillary lies at will, she flip flops, steals from other campaigns, and she divides. She will continue to divide this country and I will be even more cynical about politics than ever before. Republicans aren't Hillary's enemy… All Americans are.

I would say Clinton had just as much do with this as any Republican. As it's been mentioned she needs Florida because she's going to lose the other early states…. It's a no brainer. Use your machine and strong arm the system to win no matter what. She's like a George W reincarnated.

Another poster correctly stated the FL results would still have influence on subsequent primaries. The lack of leadership from the FL governor, legislators, and national parties should not deter anyone’s vote when the presidential election is so important. They do not have the right to render any votes meaningless. It's unconstitutional, and the results would be upheld if it comes to a challenge. Florida voters of both parties should ignore this charade; vote for their candidate of choice; and let the courts deal with the upholding our rights in the event our delegates are the deciding votes.

A couple of guys here blamed the Clinton machine for the Florida's decision to move up the dated because, in their views, Hillary will lose in the primaries of Iowa, New Hampshire & South Carolina. What a bull!

These guys must be republicans which, like George Bush, are in denial!

The fact is that Hillary is leading in polls of the dem votes in all the 4 DNC mandated primary states (Iowa, NH, SC and Nevada), and the margins are increasing. She also leads in FL by a big margin.

With or without FL votes, she will win these primaries. The only way she will lose is someone rigging the voting machines.

I agree with Dan in TX - everyone needs to research their choices for presidential candidate -

Hillary - socialist. untrustworthy (remember anti-war/Bush bloggers - she voted for it…from the same intell Bush had….which might lead you to believe that she would "do the same if she were president" - which you would be able to make excuses for her…again and again)

Obama - honest, sincere - yet still a left winger looking for higher taxes and more goverment programs

Edwards - trial lawyer who sued insurance companies - then claims "can you believe there are people who can't get affordable insurance?" (wonder why)

The country needs a moderate - there are NONE on the Democrats side - and only one on the Republicans - Giuliani

For the past few elections, Iowa and New Hampshire have had a disproportionate influence over the choice of the nominee. By the time our primary rolled around here in Texas, the nominee was already known. We essentially had NO say in the nomination process. While Florida's defiant rescheduling of its primary may not help things, it can't hurt anything that I can see. I doubt seriously that the Democratic Party will abandon Florida at the convention. That would cost many votes in a critical state.

The whole nomination process is flawed. It came out of the "smoke filled rooms" and into the light by adopting state primaries rather than state conventions. Now instead of being crooked and rigged, it is merely insane. It gives us candidates like Bush and Kerry, two lightweights that couldn't run a shoe store, much less a nation. Something needs to change.

The term "democrat" originated as an epithet and referred to 'one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses. The Democrat Party, why would you expect them to follow the rules?

The timing of the primaries is unfortunately enshrined within state legislation, and it is not the responsibility of the unelected national committees to override that. Having said that, the current system is a joke and must be remedied before 2012. This will take tactful negotiation on the part of the national committees, not the "first strike" diplomacy of Howard Dean (imagine if he had been successful in his Presidential campaign?), possibly through the national Governors' caucus.
As far as New Hampshire and Iowa are concerned, the former has not selected a successful Democratic challenger since Jimmy Carter, and Iowa never. What reasons are there why either of these states should claim priority in the selection process?

This gives them time for all of their "recounts".

Here we have the DNC getting tough about states wanting to vote early, and then they roll over when faced with the GOP/Bush slick news machine. Let people vote and have their voices heard. Change the rules to have rotating regional elections. And limit the elections to the year of the election, I am so sick of the 2008 election that started in 2006. Are the people running for President in 2012 going to start running on 22 January 2009? This election is a sad commentary about how the press is obsessed with elections. I recommend that the primary elections should be held in March, April, May, and June in the year of the election.

Wooo… Isn't the US supposed to be a DEMOCRACY? You know, government by the people for the people? How can a party that purports to be a part of that process dictate the rules of engagement to the people it's supposed to be serving? And how can the candidates even consider it ethical to punish a state by not campaigning in a place that doesn't play by the party rules? That's just absurd!

<sarcasm&rt;Oh, I get it! The dems want the republicans to win again. Riiiiiiiiight.</sarcasm&rt;

*baffled*

It doesn't matter when Florida holds its primary or general election. They'll screw it up no matter when its held. The people in Florida should have to vote on paper ballots so they can get it right.

Why they can't just compromise on, say, February 2, I have no idea. Guess I won't be voting for any of the candidates (since it won't count) come January.

First of all, the Florida House and Florida Senate are dominated by the GOP which passed this law. The votes of the Democrats were meaningless.

Second, Florida primary voters have had little say in the nominating process (regardless of having all their delegates) the past couple of elections because the races have been over by the time Floridians get to vote. The goal of making Florida an early voting state is to get candidates to pay attention to Florida and break the Iowa/NH logjam.

Third, Howard Dean is WAY out of line by threatening to punish Florida Democrats for the actions of a GOP majority in the legislature (and the Governor). Just what is it about running the DNC that entitles him to do this?

Fourth, the overreaction by the DNC is simply to preserve the status quo of the Iowa caucuses and NH primary being the first in the nation. This is absurdly traditionalist and with all due respect to Iowa and NH, its time for other states to be given a chance to get the first crack at the candidates.

SB, Maryland:

Jeb Bush is not the governor of Florida. The article clearly states it was Gov. Charlie Crist who signed legislation to move the state's primary.

I'm sorry, in the grand scheme of running a country does it really matter when the state primary is held? Is Februray 5th that much better then Janurary 29th? We need a NATIONAL Primary day, say the second Tueday of May, this would give both parties 6 months to race to the finish. The money the parties and candidate spend would be more even and we wouldn't have state reaching for the almighty dollar.

What's wrong with these stupid morons?

Fight Bush. Fight Republicans. Fight fascism. End this g—– war. Give us affordable health care. Protect SS and Medicare.

Sometimes the Democrats are so damn stupid I can't stand it.

All I gotta say is that the old crappy primary system with Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina holding their primaries first gave us Kerry. The candidate that Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina prefers really has no bearing on whether a democrat can be elected president. Even if the Florida delegates can't be at the convention, you bet the others will notice who Florida goes for.

I don't get this. Don't parties have a right to decide how to choose their own nominee? If not, why have a two party system? Why not have a free for all?

Unless we go to a national primary, having all 50 states vote on the same day (yes, including New Hampshire and Iowa too), the 2012 primaries will start around October 2011. And the date creep will continue to happen until somebody puts some common sense into the process and just stops the silliness.

I can understand why FL and the other states moved up their primaries initially. It was an attempt to get the candidates into the state and spending money before a bunch/most dropped out and there wouldn't be so much money coming in. But I don't why they are sticking with it after the announced sanctions and the pledges of the candidates not to come to the state. Not to look like they are caving, I guess.

And for all those bashing the Dems, who are worthy of criticism, don't be so quick to praise the Repubicans either. Re-read the article. They are doing the same thing other states.

Democrats wanted to count and recount our votes so bad in 2000, but they don't want our votes to count at all in January 2008. I bet when the general election comes around they will want Democrat's votes to count. I say that if they don't want our votes in Januray, forget about them in November too. An automatic win in Florida for the Republicans in November is what the DNC deserves.

SB, Maryland : September 22, 2007 11:21 pm :

LOL! Wrong. I know it's real easy and habitual for Democrats to simply scream "it's the Republican's fault" but that doesn't work here.

"Last month, Florida Democrats asked the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee to recognize Jan. 29 as its primary date, a request that was rejected outright. The DNC panel then gave the Florida Democratic Party a month to submit an alternative date or risk losing all of its delegates."

Yes, it was a Republican Governor who signed it into law, but that's only because it's his job to sign the request by the Democrats who voted for it.

But keep screaming "it's Bush's fault." Eventually people will believe you.

Thank you Dave Cheverly of MD for clearing up that matter of florida's early primary it was very inciteful and really shedd some light on the how and why's of this issue … perhaps you should consider advising obama.

Simmone C. Chicago, IL

very bad idea-whoever decide this one- go ahead and have primary and continue cmapigning.we need florida if we want to win. to naive dem. too naive candidate- dont let the committee decide- its a big delegate in flrorida. whos decision is this- go ahead have a priamry on jan.29 or jan?what date.

Actually, it is the national Democrats who don't want the state's votes to count. They impose their political calendar through fascist rules and vague threats against states who fail to comply, taking away American's rights to vote simply because they think that they, the DNC, should control when every state in the country votes. What arrogance! What hubris! Both national committees need to abandon this national calendar system and let states vote when they want, not having undemocratic conventions without a real national nominee because some states were barred from participating.

Why don't we move the primary to last month. Ridiculous.

Gregor in Sacramento:
It was the republican leadership in Florida that has created this mess. They are telling their citizens that it's OK with them if their vote doesn't count. It will also help Hillary Clinton, who wants to achieve a "bump" on the same day she loses in South Carolina. She wants to gain some momentum because she will likely be losing ground by January 29. The republicans want her to win because she will be the easiest democratic candidate to beat in the general election. So it's not as simple as it sounds. It's a calculated move on the part of the Florida State government. Funny - Jeb Bush is governor.

Why is it always Florida? First the hanging chads, and now this. I think the DNC should forbid Florida from releasing results of the primary until Feb 5. And I think Hillary Clinton should be exposed for violating her written agreement about not campaigning in Fla. (as I understand she has 5 events scheduled there).

I'm a Dem and for the life of me I can't understand why in the world they are pushing this. And I agree that it will probably benefit the Repubs. Have the primary on Feb. 5th, who cares. My vote better count. If it in effect does not because no delegates, I think there will be another legal challenge on the horizon for Florida voters. And by the way, how old are these DNC rules? Can you say amend if necessary… Somebody give already.

Wonderful, so now my vote won't count. Florida, that's not fair. I think many of Florida's democrats won't even bother to go to the polls. Cannot see why all Democrats don't vote on primaries at the same time. Last presidential primaries- all the candidates but Gore had dropped out before we in Florida were able to cast a vote. So much for my vote counting then eiter. Maybe I need to look at the Independent party.

It is such a shame that after all the nonsense floridians have had to deal with when it comes to politics that now they we are getting Democratic delegates knocked off BECAUSE of the Democrats being too impulsive. Of course the Republicans are encouraging the Dems to make this mistake- it favors them. Why are they being so stubborn??

This was a “brilliant” decision by our legislature and governor. They knew the primary rules of Feb. 5th and decided to move it up one week to Jan.29th in defiance. Keep in mind; the RNC is planning to cut half of their delegates, too. The Dems apparently ceded their votes when an amendment was added to create a paper trail for all voting machines (Google: Sarasota voting machines).

Not overlooking the obvious, every one of them knew the guidelines and decided to make their own rules when we are talking about the election of our next president. It is safe to advise each of these legislators, governor, and both national parties that if FL delegates from either party are the deciding votes, it will be challenged.

Eventually, primaries should be held on one day or rotating regions, but until that passes states should be following the guidelines.

This just shows the insanity of the primary system. Each state can, on its own, decide to be first. Thus we keep on dragging out the process. Ever wonder why campaigns cost so much? If you drag the process out so candidates have to campaign for two years to get elected, you make the process costly. Enough is enough, start the primaries in May, have nominations in July/August and then campaign for the general.

Allow me to UN boggle your mind. The CLINTON machine has pulled favors from Florida Dems to move their Primary up to the same day as South Caroline Jan 29 and before the big Feb 5 second round of primaries. Since Hillary will loose in South Carolina and would have just lost in IOWA and New Hampshire primaries. She will use that primary win to have the media to declare she is still in the race. Since all candidates pledged to not champagne in Florida Hillary would win that states Unrecognized DNC Primary because of her name recognition. By the media promoting it as a win state for her it will have a mental effect on the Feb 5th Voters letting them think a vote for Hillary at that time would not be wasted. Obama MUST find some way to have someone champagne for him in Florida to get a win in that state as well. The trick is to watch out for the Gotchas. (The California brake up of their delegate for the General election is another one.) The Republicans are doing that one to win the General election. Those things need to be STOPPED NOW as they will be Obams and the Dems undoing latter !!

I don't understand who this benefits if they hold early primary voting in Florida. It just seems pointless. Who cares if you vote the same day as people in 25 other states?

Apparently the two posters ahead of me just don't understand that the FORMER Democratic party had ABANDONED us in the seventies and eighties when they started attacking the US Constitution and turned toward socialism. S***W the DNC, this may be the start of the much-needed new party!

It doesn't boggle MY mind. They're Democrats. Democrats have never been good at thinking things through and they ALWAYS act on impulse rather than common sense. It's awesome!

Good for FL. Put the power in the people's hands instead of the committees' hands. It's about time someone stood up to the king-makers.

It also boggles my mind. Hello Florida Democrats, anyone home? Your vote will be pointless and you will become irrelevant. Idiots!

It boggles my mind why my state democratic party is pushing for these early primaries….