Matt in Boston,

You wrote: Wh(ile) the prostate cancer survival rate is different between the U.S. and the U.K. is _a_ worthwhile story, yes, but it is not _the_ story at hand.

This is where we will disagree. The important discussion should be whether or not government controlled healthcare will be better or worse for America. I would like to know why the survival rates are lower in nations with such programs, regardless of whether or not the ratio is 4 to 3 or 2 to 1. I am aware that statistics are not exact and often flawed, but the trend is undisputed by all sources given.

That Giulianni quoted the study that most illustrates his point is something that politicians do all of the time. That CNN, AP, NY Times, and you chose to make that the issue continues the trend in our media to focus not on issues, but character assasination.

Like CNN, you have not addressed whether you know why the discrepency exists, or if you care.

$500 deductable for each.
$300 month, Family Medical with Dental and Sight.
$15 co-pays, 1/2 Dental and Sight costs.

I do hate insurance but it is for world class healthcare and it is better than a 20+% tax increase for less quality service in a NHS.

Rick, Kansas City, MO

u live in KANSAS not UK

Posted By christian, selden, ny : November 3, 2007 12:01 pm

Doesn't it say right in your own post that I live in Missouri? Or do you abbreviate Kansas with MO?

I am well aware of where I live.

Thank you.

Jay in Wisconsin,

You seem like a reasonably bright individual, and so I hate to insult your intelligence by taking you at your apparent word that you actually believe the interpretation you're trying to sell, and the umbrage you're trying to justify.

Why the prostate cancer survival rate is different between the U.S. and the U.K. is _a_ worthwhile story, yes, but it is not _the_ story at hand. Had Rudy been satisfied simply to make the point in his ad that some difference exists, perhaps the article would have reflected your take on the matter.

But it is hardly beyond the ken of any critical political observer to suppose that Rudy was not satisfied with that, and instead chose to cite wildly inaccurate figures, in order to stoke hatred and fear of socialized medicine, which is a ridiculously transparent straw-man anyway since none of the leading Democratic candidates are even advocating for such a system.

The story as I said before, is not that some difference exists, which is an undisputed fact, but that Rudy Giuliani grossly exaggerated the difference (based off of erroneous comparisons and faulty analysis, as pointed out by everyone in a position to know) to score political points, and, having been caught red-handed doing so, refuses to take the ad off the air.

That's probably because he knows full well (sadly, but accurately) that (a) he doesn't need to tell the truth in order to appeal to the, yes, closed-minded and misinformed throngs that jump at any chance to bash what they've been told is the Democratic "agenda"; and (b) the media in balance is far more right-slanted than left-slanted and by and large won't make a big deal of it.

This is a legitimate and substantive story that informs on the integrity of the candidate, and would be so regardless of the political party of the perpetrator. I could note further reasons why your accusation does not hold water, including the fact that it's not even a CNN article (it was distributed by the AP), and the fact that they were far more charitable to Rudy than they honestly should have been, given all the relevant incriminating details that were left out. If you're obliged to be as informed as you claim the rest of us not to be, you might want to read these other articles on the matter:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/us/politics/31prostate.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/a_bogus_cancer_statistic.html

Headline should have read:
Giulianni and American Cancer Society Agree Prostate Cancer Survival Rates Higher in U.S. than U.K.

And that's what it would have read had Giulianni been a Democrat and the statistic been used to promote Government Healthcare.

Matt; Boston, MA wrote to me:Why do I doubt that you complain when CNN jumps on the bandwagon with other MSM sources in reporting on petty inanities against Democratic candidates, like Edwards' haircut or Hillary's cleavage?

I do. These stories are a waste of time and demonstrate that the media keeps us entertained but ignorant.

From the article: The American Cancer Society says five-year survival rates were 95 percent in the U.S. and 60 percent in the United Kingdom…

I believe an open minded person would like to know why the survival rate is greater in America than the U.K. That should have been the real story, but CNN deftly framed it as Giulianni is a liar and you played along.

The article even says Giulianni's statistics were from 2000 and the Cancer Society's were from 1993-1995. Is it any wonder the statistics are different?

So is it Giulianni or CNN that is being misleading?

Best Wishes,
Your Willfully Close-Minded Right-Wing Reactionary

Unbelievable that some Americans still believe that socialized medicine isn't as good as private care. While we may have wait times that are longer than those American's that can actually afford healthcare, our wait times are a lot shorter than those Americans that do not have healthcare. And… even if you have healthcare in the US and you pay through the nose for it, there is nothing that says your insurance company will cover you when you get to the end of any therapy, surgery or whatever you have. You may well get a big bill that will force you to sell your home and you will be on the skids because of medical bills. At least with our government healthcare EVERYONE has a chance. Not just rich Republicans. I don't know why you bother to even talk about socialized medicine because you don't know anything about it. But we know about the American plan. Our system in Canada has many 'uninsured' Americans using it free of charge as well. What do you think we are doing in Canada, France and the UK when we go to the doctor, sitting for years waiting for treatment? Doesn't happen and if you are dumb enough to believe it then you deserve your broken system that leaves it's own people to suffer and die without giving it a second thought. No one dies in ambulances in hospital driveways in our countries and no one rifles an unconscious persons pockets looking for insurance cards. By the way, if the insurance card isn't there, you get dropped off on skid row to die. America is touted as the richest country in the world and they can't even look after healthcare for children let alone the rest of the population. You can't imagine the benefits to your economy, your people and your future if you look after the people. BTW, the countries that do have socialized medicine have a much smaller gap between rich and poor. That's because they aren't burdened by ridiculous money grubbing pharmaceutical industry. Ah, the American dream. Dreamed about by all, experienced by few.

Let's see. Who to trust on statistics over prostate cancer: Rudy Guiliani or the American Cancer Society?

Decisions, decisions…

You can't go to England for cancer treatment unless you are rich. If you have insurance they won't cover the costs , never mind the air fare etc.If you are rich you can go anywhere and everywhere you wish for treatment!

To Jay in Wisconsin,

Why do I doubt that you complain when CNN jumps on the bandwagon with other MSM sources in reporting on petty inanities against Democratic candidates, like Edwards' haircut or Hillary's cleavage? I don't hear your type complaining when they report on substantive criticisms of Democrats either.

But oh no, heaven forbid a news agency report on a legitimate, substantive piece of news that incriminates a Republican, like the fact that Rudy Giuliani put a demonstrably false and misleading ad on the air and refuses to stop airing it.

Huh, what?? Rudy play deceptive and manipulative politics? But, but…we all know Republicans can do no wrong It simply must be the "liberal" CNN slandering Rudy's good name, right?

And yet simply reading the article reveals that it isn't CNN "quibbling" with Rudy, but groups like the American Cancer Society - you know, folks who, unlike Rudy, actually know something about the healthcare system - refuting him. Hell, a little digging into the story reveals that even the authors of the study where Rudy supposedly got his numbers stated publicly that his claim was false and misleading.

Whether the fact offends your willfully close-minded right-wing reactionary worldview or not, it is legitimate news that Rudy tried to pass off a blatant distortion as "fact", got caught doing it, knows he got caught, and is now the one doing the quibbling in a lame attempt to defend himself - and the false ad plays on.

That speaks volumes about his dubious character and integrity, which is something all voters should hear about, if they're genuinely interested in making an informed decision.

I love the liberals (well..not really) - the Democrats are pushing a socialist healthcare system….what Giuliani rightly points out…is that the quality of care is not as good…and the stats prove that…and you complete morons start jumping on him…omg…I'm scared that illiterates like you are allowed to vote….

Of course it's misleading to compare the two countries, it's a Republican talking,Duh!

therealist

you paid $1000 in deductibles for the whole yr. and thats it?? you dont pay monthly through your job??? i pay $1300 a month in ins. plus deductables plus i get that wonderful surprise when the ins. company doesnt cover something and i find out when the bill comes. i pay family ins. as well. i am a commissioned based employee and make a very good living for myself. but you see its not about me i couldnt imagine either being stuck in the middle and trying to take care of a family on those prices or not have ins. at all and get hit for $4000 for a hospital visit like i did a yr ago when i was in the middle of switching ins. companies and had to go to the hospital more then 30 days before my new ins. kicked in. the health ins. industry should not be making this much profit it should be illegal and i shouldnt have to pay $100 for antibiotics because the actual cost of the medicine is $300 due to the bill BUSH passed that allows prescription companies to charge whatever they want for pills that cost 10 cents to make!!!! the system is corrupt and if you were a realist you would see it because in reality, like i said before, if a country is paying almost nothing for medical care and are getting the same results as a country paying billions, there is something corrupt and terribly wrong with the system that NEEDS to be policed but instead gets looked over countless times due to lobbyists and news companies like FOX putting out dissinformation to the public acting like we will have aweful health if we switched out of the health insurance companies pockets and into the system, healthier yet not as rich, countries have and have been proven to work….that is the REAL side of this issue…..

All these posts indicate why this country is heading on the fast track to socialism. Everyone wants something for nothing, paid for by the other guy. Rudy is not my first choice for President, but he's right about health care. Anyone who thinks somewhere other than the United States is the best place to get sick had better hope they have mental health care. Yes, we can improve the system we've got - but not by turning over more power to the feds. Unfortunately, solving health care problems cannot easily be accomplished in a nation of fat, lazy, smoking diabetics who want everything super-sized.

Giuliani is not electable.

Giuliani is a person of questionable personal character, conduct unbecoming to be the next president as highest office of america, because:

1. He is a father whose own children would boycott his inauguration.
2. He is a husband whose first wife was his cousin and whose current wife can't remember how many times she married.
3. He was a cross-dresser.
4. Gay-tolerant and prochoice, Giuliani contradicts, and even demeans, the "values" that have defined conservative America for a generation.
5. He is a Yankee fan who has been rooting for the Red Sox.

The truth is Giuliani seems less impressive in person than he does in the polls. This points that to know Giuliani well is to hate him, and there are lots of people outside new york city yet to know him well. His speeches are poorly prepared and convoluted, and he is given to silly gimmicks, such as stopping in mid-speech to the NRA to take calls from his wife on his cell-phone, and that was the second time his wife called him during his speech, presumably showing their happy married life.

Hillary will beat Giulian in the next election. All she needs to become the next president to win one more state than John Kerry. A recent Quinnipiac poll found that Hillary is leading Rudy in 3 swing states that John Kerry lost ot Bush: Pennsylvania (48%-42%), Ohio (46%-40%), Florida (46%-43%).

Another key fact: In all three states, sizable majorities say they're not too likely or not at all likely to change their minds, leading Quinnipiac to conclude that her "support appears to be as deep as it is wide." Quinnipiac also notes that Hillary is the only Dem to beat Rudy in all three states.

>>>Your chance to survive any type of cancer with no health insurance - ZERO! –Irene, Clearwater, FL :

No, according to the American Cancer Society, you have the same 25% chance as US men whose lives probably weren't in danger, the same 25% whose cancers is not even noticed in the United Kingdom.

I paid $1000 in deductables for each of my two kids. Its the only time I ever felt like I got my money's worth from insurance. And that's from a company with a "below average" benefits package. So if yours cost more, you need to either get a better job or get a government job..

Oh Rudy, aren't those statistical survival rates for those who pay to be treated? Ask someone in middle or low income bracket how the survival rate is down there. This guy has to go. Giuliani is a liar and a phony. This is the best the GOP has to offer? He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Rick, Kansas City, MO

u live in KANSAS not UK

spinstopper

let me just tell you- 15 out of 100,000 mortality rate compared to 12 out of 100,000 mortality rate is pretty similar but the funny part is the american people are paying billions more a year for pretty much the SAME RESULTS as people that are paying NOTHING!@!!!!!!!! hello hello spinstopper what are you stopping from spin???? like bill oreilly in the no spin zone but he SPINS EVERYTHING!!!! amazing

Oh Rudy…….. you USED to be so popular in the UK, getting an Honorary Knighthood after 9/11…seems so long ago now. These days you are mouthing-off against everything and everybody, and if comments like this (against America's closest ally) are any indication of how a 'President Giulliani' would behave, we can truly say goodbye to the 'special relationship' (its already on life-support after 7 years of 'W'…)

As for the British National Health Service, I was born, lived, (had treatment & surgeries) in the UK for 40 years. Yes, its not perfect, but EVERYBODY gets looked after, and the average Brit is HEALTHIER with far lower rates of Obesity, Diabetes, etc than the average American (look up that statistic Rudy!). When I tell people back home about how it cost me over $5,000 for the birth of my son (Health Insurance deductable + co-pay + out of pocket, etc), they are stunned (there is NO cost for child-birth in the UK). So sad we can't AFFORD any more kids, in this underpopulated and aging state (oldest in the Union!)of Maine where we now live…..

Also, Rudy, in the UK we have millionaires, just like you, who get the very best (private) healthcare treatment money can buy. If you want to compare yourself to anybody, compare to them!

NHC doesn't usually provide for frequent screenings and routine tests that will catch prostate cancer in its early stages.

THIS Guy's a MORON. You play fast and loose with facts just to make a false ad to advance your agenda? …AND HE WANTS TO BE PRESIDENT…. What a loser !

infant mortality rates in Britain are way lower then in the US rates. I guess we are a country that does value old spent men over the precious promise of our future, our youngest most vulnerable. This position is being ratified by the SCHIP fight going on in DC these past two weeks.

>>>Your chance to survive any type of cancer with no health insurance - ZERO!

Word. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

I am an American living in the UK. The Lancet, which is one of the paramount medical journals in the world, ran an article in August stating Overall, survival for all cancers combined in the UK as a whole is not only below the European average, it is also noticeably similar to some eastern European countries that spend less than one third of the UK's per capita healthcare budget." Addressing the problem would require "fundamental reassessment of the ways in which the NHS operates".. Socialized medicine is an utter disaster and anyone who lives and works here, outside the Government will tell you the same thing. Ed Lord

This is of course due to people avoiding the UK's NHS as much as possible due to it's poor quality of service. Yearly doctor examines and biyearly dental cleanings are unheard of in England. You need only tab over to the BBC's complaint department, I mean HYS, to see for yourself.

American NHS? NO THANKS HILLARY!!
Posted By spinstopper : November 2, 2007 4:24 pm

It's silly to believe the talking points of self-serving politicians without having personal experience of the service.

The NHS medical service is not poor quality - the truth is its as good as you'll get anywhere in the World. Yearly doctor examinations are encouraged and bi-annual dental cleanups are encouraged by dentists.

Brits are into self-deprication. We love to complain and fondly denigrate national institutions (The NHS, The Royals, The BBC, etc) but woe betide any politician who attempts to try to get rid of any of em!

We Brits would tell you that NHS Doctors and Nurses are fantastic - it's the managers nobody likes!!

However, the largest sobering difference between the UK and the States medical service is peace of mind. No-one here ever has to worry about the financial impact of having a long-term or terminal illness. Pls imagine that for a moment - not worrying cos a job doesn't provide health insurance - not worrying about health insurance premiums going up because of a pre-existing condtion - not worrying about going without vital drugs because they are expensive. All prescriptions cost abt $14. Seniors, pregnant women and children under 5 get their prescriptions free) …

And before anyone raises the scary spectre of high taxes; when all federal, state and local taxes are taken into consideration, the truth is, there really isnt a huge difference between USA and UK income tax rates. Unemployment rates are also quite similar. In Oct 07, I think it was something like 4.7% in the States and 5.4% in the UK.

America is a great country and there are many many wonderful things about the USA, but but we Brits are quite proud of out country too.

Oh come on, when have the facts, any facts, stopped Mr. Giuliani from making the point he wants to make?

If conservatives still have a stranglehold on the Republican Party, Rudy The Moderate won't have a legitimate chance at the GOP presidential nomination.

The post about a person's chances of surviving cancer with NO health care is the important comparison to make here.

Whatever statistics Rudy wants to quote, he can't escape the fact that the UK covers EVERYONE and does so while spending about 45 cents on the dollar compared to the US. To the extent that we have better overall care here (debatable), it is accomplished by feeding 15% of our population to the wolves and overspending on the rest.

I'm sure that's fine for Rudy though. He's had free health care for his entire adult life and has taken full advantage of the medical largesse we bestow on the 'worthy' citizenry. The 'little people' can rot for all he appears to care.

"99 percent in the U.S. and an estimated 74 percent in the U.K."

Doesn't this mean that 25% of American men with prostate cancer would not have been diagnosed if we had a NHS?? Hmmm…, maybe I should rephrase that to keep CNN from pulling my post.

Americans are rather uninformed when it comes to health care around the world. It epitomizes the attitude towards fellow citizens at most levels- "as long as I'm ok, who cares about the other guy". If you "cherry-pick" stats like one about cancer, the US looks great. Of the major statistics regarding health worldwide, the US lags most western countries in almost every category. Do some reading folks. There's more information about health care than what you read in this article. Cancer is used as the example because the US is the leader in that category. One of the few it does lead in a positive way.

CNN frames it Anti-Republican again.

Giuliani's point is that the survival rate is higher in the U.S. than the U.K. and by everyones statistics in the article he is right. Rather than discuss the reason for this CNN quibbles about whether it 82/44 or 95/60 without mentioning if both statistics were measured using the exact same standards. Another article designed to bring out dozens of "Giuliani is a liar" comments by misinformed readers.

You just don't get it Rudy…it is about American citizens not having the opportunity you had to beat cancer or any other disease because THEY HAVE NO INSURANCE…hello…anybody home?

I HAVE insurance, and I waited three hours the other day in an Urgent Care to be seen for a bad cough. People who came after me waited even longer, and many were sent home and told to call back every hour to see where the line was. So don't tell me that things will get worse when we insure everyone-sometimes it's no that great now!S

you notice that Giuliani did not compare the Protstate cancer survival rate to the single payer system they have in Canada. Thats because its better.

you will also not hear from this wealthy individual how much better your chance of survival is in his socio-economic situation versus someone not as fortunate…but who cares about them.

and finally this hypocrite will tell you how bad and scary it is to have the government fund your health care. But who do you think was paying for that expensive Prostate Cancer surgery when he was the Mayor of New York City?

Choose who you want for your presidential nominee, but you Republicans should know…This guy is dangerous to the republic and it will come back to haunt you in the general election.

The comment made previously about the NHS in the UK is ridiculous. I lived in the UK, and it is no different than what any middle to lower class American experiences. If it is an emergency or a clinic, the waits are long. And a lot of people hate going to the doctor unless they have to.

Also, Giuliani's comment about US citizens going to the UK for treatment makes me laugh. Who the heck would travel thousands of miles to get treatment for something when they could just get it here? How about we instead look at the number of people from poorer countries that don't have cancer treatment centers that travel to the UK for treatment. I am sure that would be another indicator that these claims are preposterous.

Will someone point out that Guiliani even talking about this is ridiculous. The UK and the proposed systems by the 3 major Democrats are nothing alike. All this "socialized medicine" talk is complete hyperbole. In the UK, doctors work for the government. Show me one plan that implements that sort of structure.

I will agree that for many areas, we have the best system money can buy. If you've got the money to afford the coverage.

Rudy, do you know why no one travels to Britain for treatment? Because going to Britain is expensive, especially since one would have to stay there (or fly back and forth). If someone has the money to afford to pay for two homes for the duration of treatment (one US, one UK), they're not the people who we need to be concerned with.

BTW, if anyone's interested, Paul Krugman's column in the NY Times today touches on this topic regarding Rudy's perpetual false claims.

I agree with Rudy. Just look at the stats CNN run (none of which were for 2000 when Rudy had cancer). The survival rates in Britain are always lower than the U.S. National health care kills. I can't believe that most of the dems want to put in place a system that will kill Americans too. Can't we let the rest of the world do the wrong thing without jumping in to it ourselves? Anyone who's for national health care should get no votes. It's not just dems either. Repubs like Mitt Romney would inflict the same system on us.

Your chance to survive any type of cancer with no health insurance - ZERO!

"Even if you want to quibble about the statistics, you find me the person who leaves the United States and goes to England for prostate cancer treatment, and I'd like to meet that person,"

He makes a good point. All the people who would get superior health care in England are too poor to go there.

Why don’t the republicans talk about the number of people getting killed by use of guns in US compare to UK. The numbers are far less in UK because of the gun control laws. The point is you can’t compare two countries based on specific issues.

Rudy also needs to point out those expensive new cancer drugs he was taking. No cutting edge drug cocktails in a NHS because their dependent on US drug company discount rates. Sorry, no discounts on new age drugs…

But its not just prostate cancer, patients die at higher rates in NHS' for most other causes too. Oh, but lets not compare that to the US healthcare system, its just not fair..

Typical Guiliani… The professionals at the American Cancer Society don't know what they're talking about, but Rudy does. Rule #1: "Never admit you're wrong, even if there's overwhelming evidence against you." Sounds like George Dubya to me.

Rudy Giuliani said something deceptive? And this is news?

"American men are far more likely to undergo screening tests that detect the disease in its earliest stages. That means U.S. survival rates include many men whose lives probably weren't in danger — and whose cancers may never have been noticed in the United Kingdom."

This is of course due to people avoiding the UK's NHS as much as possible due to it's poor quality of service. Yearly doctor examines and biyearly dental cleanings are unheard of in England. You need only tab over to the BBC's complaint department, I mean HYS, to see for yourself.

American NHS? NO THANKS HILLARY!!

That ok Rudy, we know the real reason they operated on your prostrate was to put a breathing tube in here.

Giuliani is an idiot and a liar. Big Surprise. If this guy gets elected the country is doomed.