Bob:
Thanks for your comments. Hope JB comes back in on this again. He does make good points, though I cannot help a little good natured poking. I swear, deep inside, we probably agree on more things than we differ.

JB and Jay have set a new standard of Ticker debating! I enjoyed reading articulated arguments from both and only a small dose of insult. Good job!

Ed, we both have very different views in general – you are a liberal atheist and I am concervative christian, nevertheless, I respect your opinion. I think however you are expessing your wishful thinking. Let's just say we'd have to wait and see… and we'll talk then.

Val,the republicans are now only 25% of the electorate and with Mitt running as a "thumper" he's excluding most americans. If he ran as the former governor of Mass. he'd have a chance. It would only serve our nation for him to dump the theocratic plank. Right now he thinks they're an asset when they're not. That's why his advisors are right to tell him to keep quiet about his religion. He has no chance with ties to the subversives. I'd like to see them form a third party and just go away. I'm looking at national polls that put him as a loser. I think that your opinion is based on his prior standing,something he left behind for money from the thumpers. If he rights his course and returns to a socially liberal agenda,he could possibly be a contender.

"Romney went too far the wrong way and Rudy's beating him."

Posted By Ed,Ellenville,New York

Ed, have you been living under the rock lately? Romney is leading in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. With Rudy's campaign being wounded by his protégé Kerik, voters are paying more and more attention to Romney's campaing, that would ultimately make him a Republican nominee for the White House. Once there, Gov. Romney's name will be nationally recognized and he will be home free since no Democtractic canditate will be able to stop him from winning general election.

"Leading Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani…." Tell me this no longer true. He's a serial adulterer, a liar and possibly much worse. Bernard Kerik?

JB:

In case, they don't print my response a second time:

I have tried twice to respond, but the gods of the blog required me to kill a goat in sacrifice and I just didn't have the heart. Sorry. there is a response, but they have chosen you the winner.

JB:
Sorry for the delay. I responded last night, but apparently the blog gods required sacrifice, so I slayed a goat. May this please them.

Indeed your intellect is dizzying. Unfortunately, you are so hyped up to get your point across that your reading skills have deteriorated a bit. Oh well, just like our President, don't let the facts stop you when you're on a roll.

First, you start out of the box with: "You cannot argue that many peoples morals and ethics were built upon their religious teachings. That in itself will effect their politics." On this you are absolutely correct, but I do not concede because, if you will read what I said, I didn't argue that. Just for fun, let me quote myself [I'm such an egoist]: "You are partially right about the county being founded on Christian values but ONLY IF you say Judeo-Christian values and ONLY IF you note that this is so because the Founders were products of European cultures so founded." The key point, which you ignored, was the next sentence: "You are wrong to assume that such values were intentionally incorporated by the Founders into bedrock of this Republic."

OK, small oversight. Next you state: "Back when this country was being formed, someone defined as without religion, would be considered very religious today." You then go on with several factoids showing our founders as doing something religious.
Well, ipso facto (I went to Catholic college as well–I loved Summa Theologica, did you?), I'm sunk. so, because some practices in a way less fervent than ours, I cannot debate whether the RELIGIOUS (not spiritual) ties of the Founders were not strong. Of course all of them had religious involvement to some extent, but where were they at the finish line. Franklin's oft-humorous letters to the many preachers trying to save his soul in old age are good reading. Adams was Unitarian (he would not be part of Christian Nation nowadays) and we know Jefferson was pilloried in Northern churches as an atheist for his Deist beliefs. Did he study the Bible, almost assuredly. Whether you look at it as religious scripture, a book of human wisdom, or a book of human/cultural history, it would be something a learned man like Jefferson would read. OK. Your point was.?

We somehow come to the same square when you say: "That major should play a MAJOR role in an individuals life, but not society as a whole." That is the point that I was making.

Yet, you really shoot yourself with the next statement: "You say these people were "lite" in their formal TRAINING." [capitalization mine] You then go on a roll to support this with a myriad of factoids. Problem was, JB, I didn't say that. I hate to derail such a well-oiled train, but here's what I said [roll the tape]:
"You are completely wrong in terms of the views of the Founders. With FEW exceptions, most were very light in terms of formal RELIGION." Also, I did not use the modern spelling of "light." Believe me, there's a difference between formal religious training, and formal religion, yet both can be true. For example, I was raised in the Catholic Church and recieved formal training in it; I no longer practice. I received formal religious training, but am light on formal religion. This wouldn't be such a difficult point had you quoted me correctly.

As to your conclusion that: "I think you need to go back to school. Who's the revisionist now?" I will go back for religious history, if you'll take a basic reading course.

We do agree that religion should NOT play a direct role in politics, that the founding fathers thought the same, and that their religious training (as well as the religious beliefs of their times) AFFECTED the way they established this country.

As for "progressives" and religion, I think the point has been overplayed by Republicans in order to mobilize the religious right. You are right that I am a "progressive" (I like that term). Like MOST progressives, we are not atheists our devil-worshippers. I believe fervently in God and almost became a priest. Many of my progressive friends are active church member [not just Adams' Unitarian Church either, though it is close to my current belief]. We just fear a Cromwellianism that naturally occurs when Church and State mix. This is especially dangerous with the mix of fundamentalist views and State as it pertains to challenges to science that will affect our ability/willingness to take on global warming.

As to your statement: "Their [sic] are many Christians in Massachusetts and you can't get much Bluer than Massachusetts." I know. I am originally from the Bay State–Go Sox, Go Pats, Go Celts, Go BC, even Go Bruins! We are not that different JB.

When I infer things to the "Christian Nation" phrase, it is not because I live in New England where religion is "one's own business," it is from living down here where that phrase often accompanies articles that bemoan the existence of non-Christians–when what they mean is Christians like them–which, when push came to shove, would not include RCs, Mormons, Lutherans, etc.

As for your final quote by Sam Adams-thanks. Gotta love good radicals and great beer.

Waffling?!

This is from a guy who married his first cousin, right?!?!?!

Posted By b : November 11, 2007 8:31 pm

Actually second cousin, but who's counting?

As for those who like Rudy, please take him and make him mayor or governor of your town or state. Some of us already lived through his tyranny and don't wish to suffer through another reign of his one more time!!!

Jiuliani is below The Clinton's level, he is in deep trouble, he is not electable anyway.

I wouldn't trust this guy as far as i can throw him. His complete lack of judgement regarding the backing of Kerik's appointment to lead Homeland Security speaks volumes…Oh I made a mistake!!! doesn't fly. George W has made lots of mistakes and look where we are now..no thanks! Lets stop talking war and let's, as the Beatles so wisely said, "Give Peace A Chance"

Waffling?!

This is from a guy who married his first cousin, right?!?!?!

To : vote for hillary online

"I got $35 in the bank that says no other candidate has those attributes."

After Hillary gets elected you won't even have that $35 cuz she is gonna take and take and take AND TAKE from the private sector to build up a gov't massive entitlements programs.

You also forgot her attributes of dishonesty, disingeniousness, pandering and her power-hungry ruthlessness, along with the rest of the lying Clintonistas.

I totally just want to smack you hard. Step away from the darkness.

Here we go again. Another Republican that thinks they can hide their own record by whining about someone elses. And he claims to be the person to take on Clinton. Puh-lease!

This is the same candidate that whined about Clinton attacking Bush and the other Republicans before the primary was decided. Maybe he should take his own advise and stick with talking about Romney and McCain before testing his lukewarm record against the Democrats.

Giuliani needs to address his own waffling problems along with Romney. It's going to be a "None of the Above" ticket this year for the Republicans unless they find someone better in their ranks.

Telling it like I see it,
Wynter

Hillary supporters: please don’t get discouraged. PLEASE. She is getting attacked from all sides because people deep down know she is our only hope for America and they’re trying to ruin it for everybody. Hillary is the ONLY candidate with these 4 attributes: honor, patriotism, loyalty, and kindness. I got $35 in the bank that says no other candidate has those attributes.

http://www.voteforhillaryonline.com

John in College Station, hey man, check out Ron Paul….he's a Texas congressman, and he's actually independent, but running on the republican ticket. For one, he's a true, native born Texan, unlike Bush, who's a yankee pretending to be a Texan.

Ron Paul is making a lot of sense right now. I'm usually Democrat. I voted for Bill Clinton back in the day, and he was the best. However, there is NO WAY I would EVER vote for Hillary. I don't trust her judgement, and she voted to put us into Iraq.

We need to start giving the alternative candidates more attention.

Rudy Giuliani And Bernard Kerik
President and Vise President!
What a pair they would make, what money they would make still working together!
And yes, he did make a fool of himself trying to go up against Ron Paul.

Giuliani showed his true colors by missing EVERY MEETING of the prestigious, Republican-led Iraq Study Group and instead attending fund raisers for his own campaign. When the Republican chairman told him to either start showing up or leave…he left…to raise MORE money. When given a chance to get INFORMED about the extremely important matter of Iraq, and add his voice to the quest for solutions, he chose greed and personal ambition over duty to country. Not only does that decision reveal he is not genuinely interested in what is best for America, he is the arrogance and self serving of Cheney and Bush repackaged, and like Bush totally dependent on "9-11″ appearing in bold letters on the label. We would all be better off if he would spend his remaining days collecting ex-wives and and chanting to himself his self-administered accolades for his "heroism" on 9-11.

Jay-

You opened up your post, and I thought "oh no, here we go".

"Revisionist view of American History"???????

You cannot argue that many peoples morals and ethics were built upon their religious teachings. That in itself will effect their politics. PERIOD. Back when this country was being formed, someone defined as without religion, would be considered very religious today. Did you know that Benjamin Franklin was going to be a minister? Sam Adams never missed church. John Adams was very religious. He was a Unitarian and thought religion should play a MAJOR role in an individuals life, but not society as a whole.

You say these people were "lite" in their formal training. Jefferson was extensively trained in religion as well, however, he believed the mysticism found in the Bible to be. . .unbelievable. But certainly is not "lite" in his teachings. Some say he read the Bible more than any other book. He did think that religion was responsible for many problems in society.

I think you need to go back to school. Who's the revisionist now?

I do not believe that ANY religion should play a direct role in politics. And you are right, many of the founding fathers thought the same. But, the effects on their extensive religious training AFFECTED the way they established this country.

I also think you "progressives" are making a HUGE mistake alienating those who have some sort of faith in their lives. Their are many Christians in Massachusetts and you can't get much Bluer than Massachusetts.

And finally, I would like to quote Samuel Adams-

"In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practised, and, both by precept and example, inculcated on mankind. And it is now generally agreed among Christians that this spirit of toleration, in the fullest extent consistent with the being of civil society, is the chief characteristical mark of the Church. Insomuch that Mr. Locke has asserted and proved, beyond the possibility of contradiction on any solid ground, that such toleration ought to be extended to all whose doctrines are not subversive of society."

I can go all day Jay. I would love to hear your response. I can assure that what I have posted is accurate.

Giuliani says, "Hillary can't take a position and stick with it". Giuliani can't take a wife and stick with her. And yes, Giuliani should know whose waffling, he wrote the book. My values don't allow me to believe anything that comes out of Giuliani's mouth based on his "track positions".

Clinton Knocks of Giulani and If she wins the Presidency, I will be happy and now every parent will learn to control their kids. I have listened to my mom for 54 years and I still have a long way to go till she reaches 100!

Giuilani wrong for President, Wrong on issues.

Clinton Good for Enviorment, Good for Social Security and Retirement.

I find it ironic that Giuliani jumped all over Ron Paul when Paul stated that America's intrusional policies and actions in the Middle East were the main engine behind the motivation to the 9/11 attacks (which the CIA and FBI confirmed)…which he completely misinterpreted as "blaming America for 9/11″; now he's supported by a guy who said that America is to blame for 9/11 because of God's anger over gays, abortionists, etc and he is mute. What a freakin hypocrite, go to hell Giuliani.

All the continuous jabbering about politicians changing their minds and their position on different issues.
The biggest problem we face with our 'Congress' is their inability to adjust to new events and situations.
How many ass-kissing congresspeople are still following George W. down a well of lies and deceit?
Enough to keep pouring billions of dollars into a war which has already been lost.
If even the Generals could get it right, we might have saved a thousand American lives.
Why not…..pull the troops out of the cities and set up camp in the desert.
Close enough to maintain 'striking power' but far enough away for adaquate safety & protection. The enemy in Iraq isn't afraid of America, but knowing they can't reach US soldiers, but US soldiers could be dropping in on them at any time would be equal to the President's 'War of Fear' he is conducting on the American people. Successfully unfortunately!
Three or four fully equiped military bases in the desert in strategic areas would have to cost less money than maintaining forces throughtout the entire country. Hell, we have a base in Cuba & they are still a dictator led Communist country after almost 50 years, but at least we have nothing to fear from them.
Wake up America!

FLIP FLOP, WAFFLE, Waffle..Lets bring John Kerry back for this waffle..or flip flop. I thought we lived in America, but it seems more of a third world country….RUDY is just, Rudy, He cant stick to his own story…He flipped flopped more then a dollar coaster..Rudy selected a commissioner for the HIGHEST SECURITY POSSITION…and this guy is a fraud…GO FIGURE..also hes got three wives…Lets sit this one out…

Americans have a pathetically short memory when it comes to politics. Giuliani ran a police state in NY and he will do it again if given the opportunity. Does anyone recall that he appointed his longtime friend Bernard Kerick as head of Homeland Security who has who was indicted a few days ago? 9-11 saved Rudy's career because he was on a massive downhill slide months before it and capitalized on it by simply doing his job. He turned his back on the same police force that he gave free reign to profile ethnic New Yorkers. He claimed credit for New York's dwindling crime rate when in fact the national average was on a downturn during the Dinkins Administration. If you want 4 more years of the Bush legacy than by all means, vote for this idiot. While he might have rid NY of the annoying window washers he is by no means any different than the clown currently destroying our country.

Giulani is in with one of the biggest crime bosses in New York, Bernard Kerik.
Giulani cannot be trusted!

I see a lot of partisan bickering on here. That will be our downfall as a nation. It's why China will surpass the United States as a global superpower. Americans are pigheaded and stubborn, and live life with blinders on. No one can see past their own noses, political affiliation, or personal points of view.

For those of you truly condsidering "sitting out" the voting process next year,I URGE YOU, PLEASE DO NOT SIT OUT THE VOTE???" This is how the wrong people get elected, and take this nation farther down the tubes. Voter apathy is the greatest threat to democracy. Not "terrorism", "Al Quaeda", Bush, Clinton, ect….but the American peoples' lack of concern for what their leaders do with their nation.

Everyone on this post is busy insulting the candidates and comparing them, when what they should be doing is looking at where the candidates stand on crucial issues, to make informed decisions next year. We're not looking at this race from an objective, rational standpoint. It's basically a national, highschool popularity contest.

For anyone considering not voting, because you are fed up with the main candidates like Guliani and Clinton, I urge you to seriously consider the other candidates with lesser known names. The US media drives so much of public decisions politically. Because only certain candidates receive more than their share of media coverage(Giuliani/Clinton), they get nearly all the attention from the voting public. Because of that, we, the people, end up with a bad leader in either case, nobody wins. People are only presented with Hillary and Giuliani as "THE" candidates for their respective parties. People are already resigning themselves to either one of the runners. WHY? If voters aren't happy with either candidate, then look at candidates farther down the line. Look at RON PAUL, if you absolutely HAVE to vote republican. Look at candidates like BILL RICHARDSON, and others if you must vote democrat.

Think, Americans. Listen, look deep into alternatices for President, listen to what they have to say. You may surprise yourselves and find a better leader. Much better than the current run of the mill (Clinton/Giuliani)

To JB and the rest of what I call the "Christian Nationalists:" Your revisionist view of American history is frightening in its selective blindness.
You are partially right about the county being founded on Christian values but ONLY IF you say Judeo-Christian values and ONLY IF you note that this is so because the Founders were products of European cultures so founded. You are wrong to assume that such values were intentionally incorporated by the Founders into bedrock of this Republic.

You are completely wrong in terms of the views of the Founders. With FEW exceptions, most were very light in terms of formal religion. Washington was Episcopalian but only because it was the established religion of Virginia at the time and church positions were the equivalent of community leadership positions. He was often chided from the pulpit for his failure to attend. Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and Madison all were noted for their abhorance to formal religion, even to a deity that took any personal role in our lives.

Finally, I shudder when I hear the phrase "Christian Nation." It is an invitation to religious intolerance by the backdoor. If you don't agree, let me ask you this: Just who's Christianity will be Nationalized? It's all fine so long as the country has a non-Christian population. If they are successfully marginalized, would the Christian Nationalists still be happy to march with Mormons? Catholics and Episcopalians? Lutherans? Who's next after that? sooner or later, the test of Christian Nationalism will eliminate all but only a few and they probably will share nothing in common with the Prince of Peace or the 12 Apostles.

What do you stand for Guiliani?

Rudy is fiscally conservative, turned down crime and the economy up in NY…

Well, I don't think that Rudy is giving up because maybe he knows that there is something wrong with him, a little, but he doesn't know how to go about getting rid of it. I think he wants it to leave, but it's stuck in there.

Rudy the waffler is accusing someone else of waffling?

Senator Biden was right, Rudy is a noun a verb and 9/11, totally unqualified to be President.

And please, keep me from gagging; his performance before, during and after 9/11 was NOT anything to brag about. And the best witness to that is the first responders of New York have absolutely NO RESPECT for the man. I will go with their judgement, after all, they were there.

Charactor? The man has no charactor! His personal life is in worse condition than Senator Clinton's and always has been.

At the risk of insulting Newark, he is not qualified to be Mayor of Newark, New Jersey much less President of the United States.

Yeah Rudy, we already have a divisive, non-waffling, stubborn idiot in the White House and look where that's gotten us.

Also, the Iraq Study Group was set up to find real solutions to real and immediate problems yet you dropped out and showed no commitment whatsoever. Now you're expecting us to trust you with America's problems? Keep dreaming!

You speak the truth…Hillary if you keep claiming how incredibly ignorant this administration is but yet BUSH tricked you into supporting IRAQ isnt that kinda like talking out of bothsides of your mouth. Sorry Hillary you have been exposed….What are you going to do in 2-3 months when things keeping going well in Iraq say you supported the mission the whole time????You are pathetic and make me sick to my stomach. And all you left wing idiots on here claiming BUSH lied and it is a illegal war…REALLY …So when Congress voted to authorize war that was Illegal too????You people really need to get educated and stop your common theme of BUSH lied..cause he didnt and it is looking more and more like you will be on the wrong side of history. See what you short sighted mental midgets dont understand is War is hell and it sucks but you dont give up when things dont go your way and Another thing you uneducated fools dont understand is if you give our Brave men and woman enough time they will adjust their tactics and we will prevail. I am so glad we have such a strong leader in Bush that understands that Wars are not won by opinion polls but yet thru determination and persistance…God bless our troops and our President….

Posted By Retired Sgt. Alex Brown Chicago : November 11, 2007 9:31 am

Sergeant, the "mental midget" is YOU. Only idiots and crack addicts believe anything that comes out of the mouth of George W. Bush. Face facts…he LIED. Every bit of objective evidence proves it conclusively. Instead of calling war opponents "left wing idiots" you'd better get a grip on reality yourself. God Bless our President?" I'm looking forward to seeing him in an orange jumpsuit doing the perp walk with Dick Cheney.

By the way, you "progressives" keep spouting that garbage about "Guiliani did nothing on 9-11″ and the words Swift Boat will be brought back into the political discord, and I might add will be used in the correct context. Not like when the sexual predator Bill CLinton uses it.

Giuliani has a lot of work to do, as the latest general election poll out yesterday has Clinton expanding her lead against him.

Ed-

You obviously don't know me. I went to a Catholic High School, a Catholic College, and have studied more religions than you can name. On top of that I was a Political Science major with a minor in Philosophy. So, I think I do know what I am talking about. "In God We Trust" you weiner!

Rudy's a joke. He's been waffling for years: "How many wives can I have?"

Why no report on CNN of Hillary's unethical planting of a pre-arranged question at a recent debate? Oh, I forgot – this is the Clinton News Network.

"And if you want to go back, you can track like eight different wives I've had, and that's a very serious matter."

So are we supposed to parrot "waffling" as if it were a pseudo-issue like "flip-flopping"?

I'm not interested in taglines, Rudy.

Hello

Rudy calling Hillary a waffler? Laughable! Look in the mirror Rudy! One wife, no two wives, no three wives….One could say you waffle with your marriage decisions.

Rudy-
If you want a character debate with Hillary you will lose EVERY time. You are a typical loser – you have nothing great to say about yourself so you have to pick on another candidate. You ran when you knew Hillary was running for Senator – you know you have to play dirty in order to win – great another loser candidate. Why can't you be a Republican like Chuck Hagel? He is a citizen that wants to do better for the United States – you are a typical loser Republican "swift boating" candidates.

… of course some prefer a leader who takes a firm position then refuses to budge … no matter what the facts show or how the situation changes …

Cheney is still preaches that Iraq is responsible for 911 …

My wish is that the time to run for political office could be shortened so we could all be spared the constant barrage of negative comment. Shortening the time would lessen the expense of running. The success of any candidate should not rely on who is the best money-raiser, but on who is the best qualified.
Failing to ever change one's mind, even when proven to be wrong, is not a virtue.
Looking at every side of an issue is.
Everything is not clearly black and
white, as some believe.
There are shades of gray as well.

Giuilani bashing Hillary Clinton for waffling?!!! BWA HA HA HA HA HA!!! I haven't laughed so hard since I heard some nut on the radio say Bush was a smart President! Hey there Rudy old boy, did you even think about how preposterous it sounds for you to be calling ANYONE a waffler?! Hypocrites in glass houses really shouldn't be throwing stones!

HANK..you are absolutely right. My other choice will be Duncan Hunter.

Perhaps Guliani would approve more of Hillary if she arranges for Bill to call her on her cell phone in the middle of a speech so the nation can watch her coo sweet nothings to him "spontaneously"?

It is amazing to me that a two time adulterer is still alive in the presidential race.

You speak the truth…Hillary if you keep claiming how incredibly ignorant this administration is but yet BUSH tricked you into supporting IRAQ isnt that kinda like talking out of bothsides of your mouth. Sorry Hillary you have been exposed….What are you going to do in 2-3 months when things keeping going well in Iraq say you supported the mission the whole time????You are pathetic and make me sick to my stomach. And all you left wing idiots on here claiming BUSH lied and it is a illegal war…REALLY …So when Congress voted to authorize war that was Illegal too????You people really need to get educated and stop your common theme of BUSH lied..cause he didnt and it is looking more and more like you will be on the wrong side of history. See what you short sighted mental midgets dont understand is War is hell and it sucks but you dont give up when things dont go your way and Another thing you uneducated fools dont understand is if you give our Brave men and woman enough time they will adjust their tactics and we will prevail. I am so glad we have such a strong leader in Bush that understands that Wars are not won by opinion polls but yet thru determination and persistance…God bless our troops and our President….

hmmm… it seems to me that staking out a position and sticking to it no matter what is exactly why we're still in Iraq… the ability to switch positions and deal with reality is at the core of politics, ask Mitt..

As a former New Yorker, I can say with certainty that Guliani DID NOT reduce crime in NYC. Bill Bratton, the Police Commissioner, did. Like all Repubilcans Rudy takes credit for everything and blame for nothing!

THIS MAN, GIULIANI IS A DISGUSTING THUG.

LOOK AT HIS EYES, HE IS NUTS!

Ok. Seriously, stop freaking out on Hilary Clinton.
Does everyone see her as such a big threat. Seriously, everyone is like ganging up on her.
Totally unfair, I'm voting for her.
Definitely.
If the other candidates can't even have the decency to respect their fellow opponents, then I don't think that they should be president.
Why in the world would you care what Hilary says? You worry about what you're doing and how your planning to run it and don't criticize her, she's doing her own thing, you do yours and shut up.
And besides, you know what. I'd rather have a president that has the courage to realize the facts, and is able to stand proud and change her stance or even shift it in certain cases, you know why?
Because people's pride is what got us into this big mess we're in right now.
If Bush were to change his stance on the war, wouldn't many of you be very happy? It's just that he's decided not to and to let the people suffer and dive us more into debt because of his overweight pride.
Sometimes changing your mind from the beginning isn't such a bad idea.
It's guys like these that are stubborn and arrogant that will end up getting us into big trouble again because their pride is way too strong.
So yeah. Just sayin.

rudy, let's get real. there are two things i stand by in the life scheme. a man who can't swim, or a guy who forgot he married his cousin, should never be president….andy

Yes voters will have some real decisions to make in 2008; do we want a true politician in the Whitehouse or a crook? It is true Hillary waffles from time to time, it may not be right but this political system demands it. Now take Giuliani, you take him I don’t want him and I don’t believe he can get the nomination, he is a liar a crook a womanizer as bad as Bill if not worse. Why would America Dem or Rep want this Man as President? I hope to God “We the People” figure this out by Nov 2008.

JB-Our government is rooted against the imposition of religion in our governance,not in it.You're a bigot and know nothing of our history. Even Jesus himself condemned theocracy. You should have studied his thoughts on government. Go read your bible.

Scott-"Pat Robertson lite"? No he's not religious.I think it's you.Lol.Val Davydov-Last time I checked Mitt was calling this a christian nation on his website and calling on theocrats to support him at Bob Jones University. Those actions are directly opposed to our nation's founding principles. But I guess correcting them now would be "waffling" so better to be a bigot than a "waffler".Btw it isn't possible to run for office without riding public opinion and changing with it."Waffling" is surely better than"stay the course" to imminent failure.Every candidate will change course to remain popular.(Except Bush)Romney went too far the wrong way and Rudy's beating him.

Rudy has absolutely no presidential qualities. He would be a danger to the United States if he were to occupy the White House. I would never vote for a Clinton either.

oh sure sure lets all vote for Rudy he'll get us into iran syria and who know what else, and he'll have us there for decades.
Republicans: Unless the american people are the dumbest people ever born the next president will be Hillary Clinton. The media should just suck that up as best it can. Things are changing whether you like it or not.

As a former New Yorker, I can say with
certainty that Guiliani DID NOT reduce crime in NYC. Bill Bratton, the police commissioner, did. Like all Republicans Rudy Baby takes credit for everything good and no blame for anything else.

Just more of Giuliani trying to create an issue where there is none. Hillary Clinton has said we should pull out of Iraq for for over a year. She's been for "immigration reform" for forever, same as he is. It doesn't mean anything more from her than from any of them. He's just desperate about having his numbers stuck vs Romney.

This guy just happened to be mayor of NY on 9/11 and did nothing more or nothing less than anyone else in that position would have done on that day.

This qualifies him to be President??? Get real, this guy's a joke.

May I suggest the theme song for the entire line up of 2008 Republican Presidential hopefuls: "Send in the Clowns"

Hey Keith and Ed-

Our governemnt is rooted in religion. The morals and ethics that our founding fathers wished to protect and promote were pulled from Christianity. To say that religion hurts our government shows how little you know!

Tom from NM-

I do not think anyone gets posted more than you. Why? Because you spew pro Hillary BS. Where is Rudy's waffling on abortion? He is pro choice. And before you accuse him of flip flopping, your hero Bill Clinton was pro life a few years prior to running for office. Look it up. Regarding gun control. . . .I wonder if you have the capability of understanding that being a mayor of a city and being a President of the entire US makes for different policies. Not alot of hunting going on in NYC.

Karen says: " I am voting for Joe Biden and that is my final decision and I am sticking with it. If he isn't nominated than I will not vote.PERIOD."
Hey..Karen, vote for somebody. Even if it's a Republican…make sure every person's opinion is counted. The Presidential election isn't a lottery or horse race girl!!! There are always choices…I like to think of my children and grandchildren when I vote. You know, which candidate will likely make life for them more free, less dangerous, more prosperous, happier in the next 4-8 years–then I vote. Try it…but do not sit it out girl no matter what…my families future is also on the line!!!

You tell them Rudy…That nasty Clinton lady is for abortion…no I think it's the "right to choose", hey Judy…your views are, were, mabye, years ago, months ago, prior to…oh heck Rudy, where are your views on that today anyway????Well–at least you don't waffel like her"""""?

U.S. officials have attributed much of the decline in violence to success in driving al-Qaeda in Iraq and other Sunni extremist groups from the Iraqi capital.

Looks like we may be bringing the troops home after all. This is because we have won the war. God bless George Bush. I know you 'one issue' democrats really hate to see victory in Iraq at this time, just before the election.

Well, I agree with Rudy. She is a waffler and she should never become president. I will never vote for her. I am voting for Joe Biden and that is my final decision and I am sticking with it. If he isn't nominated than I will not vote.PERIOD.

My favorite criticism of Giuliani's against Clinton so far when he ridiculed her for saying that she has more ideas than this country can afford to implement. I wasn't clear if he was ridiculing her for having a lot of ideas (a president shouldn't have too many, Giuliani seems to warn us) or for understanding full well that the country couldn't afford to do everything she'd like (shouldn't worry too much about busting the budget, Giuliani seems to be saying). This criticism seemed to be the same impulsive, clumsy thoughtlessness that Giuliani exhibits over time, from dumping wife after wife to panting after the approval of the authoritarian religious right to his blind support for Bernard Kerick. This shoot-first, think-later (if at all) approach bespeaks someone whose ambition comes before thought. No thanks.

A man who has went back on his policies about Gun control, abortion, and the war on terror [Remember the 'They will get us' line he said earlier on in the year?], this man has no right to accuse anyone of being inconsistent on issues.

Let's face the facts for this race, people: EVERYONE has faults! Everyone! Political muckraking has been around since the days of our forefathers, and will not go away with time. Every candidate in this race has something to be ashamed about, something to detract…how about we get to looking at what they can bring to the table?

As for Guliani, He is a man who has shown he cannot elect trustworthy advisors, has dropped the ball on many different issues during his tenure, and tries to make up for his own shortcomings by backbiting his opponents instead of improving himself. I for one will not vote for this man as my leader.

Republicans kill me. I like how they like to accuse the Democrats of "flip-floping." They fail to forget that George W. Bush said in the 2000 election that U.S. troops should not be used in nation building. Thats funny what are we doing not very well in Iraq.

Maybe flip-floping is a sign of not being stubborn. Maybe we could use a George W. Bush "flip-flop" in Iraq.

All of the people who say Giuliani did a great job in New York are from outside of New York. Those of us here know he was a grandstander who obnoxiously took credit for everyone else's accomplishments, never accepted blame when he was wrong, had poisonous community relations and didn't care, rode his reputation on a declining crime rate which was on the way down locally and nationwide when he got onto office already (and continued going doen long after he left), acted like a spoiled child and made a disgraceful spectacle of himself when he kicked his wife out of their home in public, and then (like Bush) happened to be in office when 9/11 happened- but did nothing himself that really changed anything. Michal Eisner cleaned up Times Square, not Giuliani. I won't even get into the fact that he had no idea how to keep good people working for him, and resented anyone who got better press than him. As for his maturity, if you liked Bush, you'll love Giuliani.

Carol Ann,, If thats the best come back you can muster up in Hillary's defence,,, please don't bother

Rudy Giuliani is such a punk. This man's record as more checkered than a chest board

Posted By Tom, ALBUQUERQUE, NM : November 10, 2007 5:15 pm

Hey Tom…It's CHESSBOARD…NOT CHEST BOARD. If you're going to make an idiotic comment at least have it close to being half-right. Lay off the peyote.
Rudy '08!!!

Giuliani was interrupted by 9/11 conspiracy theorists who accused Giuliani of having prior knowledge of the attack on the World Trade Center. As one protester was escorted from the Loveland Coffee Company by police, others continued chanting and carrying signs reading, “911 was an inside job.”

I guarantee all of these 9/11 protesters are Ron Paul plants. That guy's a whack-job.

CLINTON==GIUILANI==STATUS QUA

Those two are the same.

MASTER OF FLIP FLOOPING and talking for hours without saying a thing.

This from Rudy, the waffle house of candidates, Hmm. Is the president married to the american people? If he is we better watch our diets and exercise daily. Any sagging or loss of skin tone could result in Rudy looking for a country with more youthful and sexier citizens.

I will not vote for Hillary…or Rudy. Two peas in the same neocon/neolib warpod.

Noninterventionism now.

This guy will start WW3. Hillary is another John Kerry, noone really likes her they just think she is the winning side, just like Kerry, its not enough to beat Democrats, she will never beat the GOP, and the result is going to be an imbecile like Guliani trying to posture and bluster us into a catastrophic war.

Rudy isn't a legit candidate. Republicans might rally behind him as their best hope but that is pathetic. The guy has zero presidential cred. The only reason anyone in the rest of the country knows who he is or gives a flying F%&$ is because of his involvement in 9/11. That my friends is not enough for me to seriously consider you as our next president (republican or democrat for that matter).

Well, I finally agree with Guiliani on something. Hilary just doesn't make sense.

Here a waffle, there a waffle, everywhere a waffle waffle. So what is the big deal. Hey Rudy, why don't run for the Waffle Party.

The unfaithful 3-times-married Giuliani, who spent more time at Yankee games than at the disaster site after 9/11, is the perfect candidate to represent the incredible hypocrisy of his party.

"Regardless of who wins,it should be someone who adheres to these principles."

Posted By Ed,Ellenville,New York

And that "someone" is definitely Gov. Mitt Romney.

I think a Biden and Giuliani debate on foreign policy would put a real spotlight on the lack of knowledge Giuliani actually has.

Recently Giuilani bashed Ron Paul for his comments on why New York suffered the attacks of 9/11. He berated the idea as absurd, when in fact Dr Paul was correct. It scares me that Giuilani rose to national fame over 9/11 without knowing the reason his city was attacked. It appears he will prolong the war to hold onto his 15 minutes of fame.

Shut up Rudy, you hypocritical phoney. I can't wait for the national ads to run with you dressed in drag. Or you at the Republican Convention in '04 saying, "On 911, I thought to myself, thank God, George Bush is our is President". Between Bush and Kerik, so much for your judge of character.

My devout Christian, Republican cousin, sez there is no way he would vote for you. He also wonders what's up with Pat Robertson. I 've got to tell you Buddy, when my evangelical relatives won't vote Republican, your'e in trouble.

Whether your a Democrat or Rupublican at this point it doesn't matter. I think we can all agree it is sad that as a country this is the best we can offer from both parties. Hillary is a socialist and Rudy has nothing to say outside of 9/11 or fighting crime. God help us.

Giuliani is bad for US

PERIOD

Seems to me that the media really criticized Al Gore for exaggerating, often by exaggerating and misquoting what he actually said back in 2000.

Giuliani is the serial exaggerator in the extreme; but, alas no press coverage. E.G. I was at the 9/11 site more than most of the rescue workers, his fictitious 'facts' about prostate cancer care in Great Britain, and etc…. 'Liberal' media at it again!!

Yep. That's why I don't watch any mainstream media anymore. Too 'liberal' for my tastes. Yeah… right. Media controlled by 7 corporations that don't want to pay taxes. Liberal my a**

Well if another Republican takes office it will be good for Canada as our Canadian Currency will continue to rise!

Of course it won't do the Canadians who fly South for the winter much good. Given that many business establishments in the US refuse to accept Canadian Dollars! It was o.k. for us to have to honour US Currency but now that the tables have turned a different story. I'm not surprised.

Something eerie about Rudy, but he knows how to turn things around for the better.

Perhaps Giuliani isn't a "waffler", but his consistent positions are consistently rooted in flawed logic. I will not stand for a man who is one of the biggest proponents of Bush's foreign policy – this country can't stand another 4 years of that. I will not support somebody who will do nothing but reinforce America's newfound culture of fear – and most of all, I will not support somebody who exploits 9/11 for political gain.

Is it too much to ask a potential president and former first lady not to manipulate anyone else in order to show us how intelligent she is? Could we just have a 'little bit' of honesty from this bunch for a change of pace? Or maybe we can't handle the truth… on second thought, if this is the best she can do i don't want to hear any more of it.

Rudy is a great leader, with plenty of executive experience in New York and no one can call him indecisive, unless they are retarded. He'll be the next President. Start getting used to him. Hillary turned out to be a big dud. She'll be lucky to get the nomination.

Posted By Gus T. Miami, FL : November 10, 2007 8:48 pm

Gus, if you like him so much, why don't you make him mayor of Miami? Why should the rest of us suffer too? We sure were fed up with Rudy by the time his term was almost over. He would be just another ex mayor from NYC without 9/11. Please take him and that trampy wife of his, great family values they represent with their combined 6 marriages!!!!

The issue of drivers license for illegals is still up in the air in NY state I understand. Where are these people employed.? Probably in some candidates home doing house work for the guy.

I didn't hear Giuliani's views what he would do…at this event I attended this morning.

Guiliani, a man of respect,,,,
with hoodlum, criminal advisor buddies like Kerik and other skeletons we have not seen yet, what a pillar of Republicrite ways. Yes Rudy has never changed his mind on a position, oops sorry just read the history again…seems he does have a checkered past in this regard too.

Rudy's stand on marraige has for instance changed several times – coinciding with his divorces and affairs.

Yes sir, that glass house could use a few more holes in it right Rudy?

Run Rudy run!

GIULIANI IS A MASTER OF WAFFLING, saying anything to get the nomination, Pinocchio wannabe.

Pat Robertson recent endorsement of Rudy Giuliani have focused on how it can be that Giuliani would associate himself with a man who had once agreed that it was America’s fault that we were attacked on 9/11. It is ironic because Robertson is endorsing a cross dressing, pro gay marriage, pro choice, thrice married, avowed social liberal… within seven years of agreeing that abortionists, gays, the ACLU, and liberalism in general were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to the Pat Robertson of a few years ago, Giuliani is the living embodiment of several of the reasons God allowed us to be hit!

1) He waffles on his efforts and risks during 9/11.
He waffles on an earlier position that he spent as much time as the rescuers (policemen and foremen) during 9/11 and he was subject to the same health risks.

2) He waffles on guns.
Rudy Giuliani who called the National Rifle Association (NRA) “extremists” presented his views on guns and Second Amendment Rights this week to none other than that same “extremist” group, the NRA. A week later, Guiliani sang a different tune–sort of–as he tried to woo the votes of gun owners and gun rights activitsts.

3) He waffles on abortion.
Giuliani waffled on whether he thought it would be acceptable for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe. Giuliani said it would OK if they did and OK if they didn’t, while reasserting his contention that abortion rights should be decided on a state by state basis. Rudy Giuliani, campaigning in South Carolina, firmly stated that as president he would not seek to make abortion illegal. That seems at odds with his earlier promises, also made while campaigning in South Carolina, to appoint “strict constructionist” Justices to the Supreme Court.
Giuliani seems to enjoy playing guessing games with the public. Does anyone really find this amusing? Does anyone really want this in a President?

4) He waffles on gay rights.
Giuliani told a New York newspaper that he opposes the bill passed in New Hampshire legalizing same-sex civil unions, a surprising reversal of his past statements. In 2004, the twice-divorced ex-New York mayor, who lived with a gay couple during one of his marital crises, told TV pundit Bill O'Reilly he thought that was just fine. "I'm in favor of . . . civil unions," the Sun quoted him as saying. "A civil partnership, domestic partnership, civil union, whatever you want to call it, and that takes care of the imbalance, the discrimination, which we shouldn't have."

Where can we find a viable option for an independent candidate? Someone already owns this bunch of clowns, maybe Lou Dobbs would consider a run?

This is what I hear from Guiliani: "Blah, Blah, Blah"

If you really want to know how (bush-dumb) Guiliani is, just listen to the Republican debate when he responded to Ron Paul. He clearly does not have a good understanding of Muslims and the Middle East. If you vote for him, you're voting for continued WAR.

So the man who got his first marriage annuled and announced his seperation from his second wife in public is stating someone else is waffling?

This guy also has shifted positions on abortions, gays, and gun control.

It's laughable.

I like that Giuliani has a platform of 12 "deliverables." He has an agenda, and even if you don't like all 12, at least you know where he stands. I think he would bring some strong common sense to domestic problems and would handle the foreign policy at least as good as anyone else.

It disturbs me that most political discussion is rather childish name calling, etc. Giulani, I think, is aligned with the Republican party but really is more bi-partisan. He's focused on solving problems. That is something we need right now.

Hilary might let her ambition be the issue, rather than the problems. We'll be knee deep in beauracracy.

Instead of finger-pointing at Hillary, ol' Rudy better be getting his "ducks in a row" for the fallout that's going to come from his pal, Bernie Kerick's misdeeds for which I'm sure Rudy played a significant albeit, at this juncture, unknown role in.'Cause Bernie is going to sing like a canary….I can't wait!!! Way to go, Rudy!!!!

Indecisive on Immigration??? In Iowas she has her staff plant questions with students in the audience. What a opportunist power monger!

Pretty soon everyone is going to be stuck with the 'waffle label', it must be so frustrating to the script writers on strike. Frankly I'm not sure if Rudy is in a good position to cast the 'waffle' label, after all at least Hillary has stuck by her man… maybe we need an attribute for the term waffler… Rudy is a marriage waffler and guns issue waffler, Hillary is a health care and Iran/Iraq waffler… they might all aspire to be consumate wafflers like Mitt Rommey!

Are you sick of Rudy and Hillary…so am I. A large group of Mitt supporters are organizing an event to collect pledges and raise money online for Mitt. We are having it on the 7th of December and the website is http://www.december7thformitt.com/

I don't care if Rudy runs against her or Michael Jackson…I'll vote for whoever runs against Hillary.

WatchingHillary.com

Rudy is hardly the person to be complaining about changing positions. Between not providing radios that work to firemen and 343 dieing needlessly on 9/11, picking the wrong spot for the Command centre, putting Kerick forth for head of Homeland Security, and coming out with that pitiful pitiful statement on 9/11 – "I thank God George Bush is President", Rudy should have been criticized for much much worse than his complaints about others changing a position that hopefully all thinking and informed people would do if needed. It is the boasting of never changing positions that has gotten your country into a lot of needless headaches. Time to picks omeone who will go with their head rather than their gut.

Hey Gus,looks like you read the book, "The Pet Goat" all the way through.This finger pointing Jerk will never Get elected dog catcher now. Now go to Vegas and bet on it!Lets see if you really have a set?

Go Hillary for President in 2008! Don't worry about being criticized by Rudy or anybody else. They are just jealous. Always remember that when you are GREAT (and you are) others are going to try to constantly take unwarranted jabs at you. We love you Hillary!!!!!

Hey Rudy, do you like Whipping cream on your waffles. Something like the Whipping Hillarys going to put to the goofy republicans this time around ?

Why are you guys even arguing about all of these candidates? They're all equally worthless and all would gladly off thousands of us just for their political benefit. There is only one choice and that is Ron Paul. Find me another candidate that cares about you and has a solid record for 30 years. If you find me one I'll shut up and go off myself.

Waffles are good, Rudy, and you know it. Real winners don't whine about oppositions defense. They just play good offense. Didn't you know notice how Illinois defeated Ohio State today ? It was certainly not by whining about Ohio States defense. How come you politicians just don't get it ?

Tom, Albuquerque, I agree with you. I couldn't believe Rudy doesn't know himself at all. I don't trust him because he will change his commitment again. Gus T, Miami, Rudy may be lucky to get Republican nomination, because there is no a brilliant, powerful and strong leader on Republican candidates.

The "Waffler" is YOU Rudy! It will be fun to watch the Hillary take him apart one issue at a time.

Oh and Rudy? Pat Robertson will not save you!

Oh and for all you Bush supporters who don't know who Gen. Custer was I'm sorry for bringing more confusion to your overtaxed mentalities.

You know it comes to mind when ever I hear someone call George Bush and Rudy 'decisive leaders' that the same was said about Gen. George Custer before he led his men into a massacre. Just food for thought, you know?

The various flavors of kool-aid being sipped here can argue all day about who's the best, most qualified, most credible, best backbone. etc. There's a half dozen candidates between the two parties with records of accomplishment that are tangible and laudable. And Hillary's record of achievement is founded on ….. queen of cronies ? ….. she looks good in mud ? What ?

Hey Carol from ME: Sure Hillary stuck with Bill. The reason why was he is her ticket to the whitehouse.

WatchingHillary.com

Dear Jay and Eric:

I have been honestly humbled by the logic and sentiment of both of your statements! I see I can no longer compete with the reasoning of your blindness and idiocies!

Obviously by making fun of my name, you can only secure the needed support and trust that America seeks. And, by resorting to insulting others it is only fair to say you have gained the respect of millions of readers here!

Thank you for your heartfelt statements, I'm sure the boys who are defending our country can now sleep better knowing that only the responsible and wise can vote!

Oh, speaking of who has to get down on their knees, we know where that happens don't we? Or rather where it doesn't happen.

Carrol Ann, have I left you out without remarking that maybe you could look up the word 'charade'?

I support our next president – I really find it amusing that Hillary supporters (aka Hillidiots) – will defend her waffling…did you watch her talk about illegal alien licensing?? And this is what you want for a president?? a waffling socialist?? we need a moderate…and we have it in Giuliani…a social liberal and fiscal conservative…exactly what will finally link the country together….rhetoric aside…

Rudy is a great leader, with plenty of executive experience in New York and no one can call him indecisive, unless they are retarded. He'll be the next President. Start getting used to him. Hillary turned out to be a big dud. She'll be lucky to get the nomination.

At least Hillary "stuck with" her husband! More than you can say Mr. Giuliani.

Waffles and now Cap'n Crunch. I'm hungry!! But not for Julie Oni.

Which one of you candidate wannabes is that?

I WILL VOTE FOR Captain Crunch before Hillary and the Demo,s!!

Keith:
Atleast none of the Democratic candidates has to go down on their knees and kiss the ring of American Taliban leader and general purpose lunatic, Pat Robertson. At least one party still believes in separation of church and state (though I am being very liberal with the term "church," as I just don't see the 12 apostles sitting around debating how to "off" Caesar Agustus in the name of Christ.)

Tom, ALBUQUERQUE, NM:

Do I sense a bit of jealousy or even resentment here because neither Hillary (totally untrustworthy) Clinton, nor Barack (totally green) Obama, nor John (totally phony) Edwards, nor Bill (totally ridiculous) Richardson aren't living up to the hopes that America has for a candidate?

Please try to get your FACTS together and stop trying to mimic your barfly friends.

And one more thing: what in the world is a 'chest board'?

As for the claims he made here in NYC after 9-11, he was here, you weren't!

Posted By KEITH JAMES LOUTTIT : November 10, 2007 5:39 pm
YOu(keith) James(the joker) louttit, you want to tell us you support another joker, Rudy? C'mon now, get your facts right!

Yeah Keith,it's funny how some principles of our founding fathers are so important that they bridge any gaps of party or personal preference. We might differ on who might protect them,but the principles themselves are worth fighting for. Let's keep driving it home to whomever might be running in hopes of securing our right to even choose. Regardless of who wins,it should be someone who adheres to these principles.

Oh boy, it's the flipper and waffle game. Yeh, we need someone who is strong and inflexible like Bush again!! Someone who won't change course even if he's going straight off a cliff!!

I hear you Tom, ALBUQUERQUE, NM – my thoughts exactly. Giuliani is such a waste of our time. I'd like to know who told this character that he had a chance. The other republicans candidates do not have nearly as much dirt as this guy has. Go home Giuliani -wherever that may be w/what is it? wife #3?

Ed,Ellenville,New York:

Gee whiz Ed, we're close geographically and politically! I agree with your statement regarding
'Nothing would help America more than ridding it's politics of the theocratic subversives. When religion is a factor in our governance,our rights as citizens are all diminished.' Somehow I failed to mention those sentiments when addressing the ignorants!

Thank you from Orange County, NY

RD& Scott-Please do sit this out.Nothing would help America more than ridding it's politics of the theocratic subversives. When religion is a factor in our governance,our rights as citizens are all diminished.

Tom, ALBUQUERQUE, NM:

Do I sense a bit of jealousy or even resentment here because neither Hillary (totally untrustworthy) Clinton, nor Barack (totally green) Obama, nor John (totally phony) Edwards, nor Bill (totally ridiculous) Richardson aren't living up to the hopes that America has for a candidate?

Please try to get your FACTS together and stop trying to mimic your barfly friends.

And one more thing: what in the world is a 'chest board'?

As for the claims he made here in NYC after 9-11, he was here, you weren't!

He does a perfect impression of Bill Clinton-look at that finger…He's just trying to divert attention away from his many flaws such as his police commissioner's indictment. I will not vote for him or Clinton. Lets have a President from a state other than New York.

Anybody except residents of NY

Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot. If it's going to be Rudy vs. Hillary I may have to sit this one out.

C'mon Rudy, accuse her of something that's not already known about her!

And what in the world are you doing in Loveland anyway, it's Boulder that needs to get the message!

Pat Robertson lite needs to go away. Maybe find another new wife or go back over seas and tell everyone how great he is. Their is no way I could ever vote for this idiot or the hag Hillary. I guess if either get the nomination I will back a independent candidate or sit this out.

Rudy Giuliani is such a punk. This man's record as more checkered than a chest board and he has the audacity to say Hillary is indecisive. First he supported abortion rights now he waffles on the issue, he supported gun control for NYC now he is waffling on that also. He has made fallacious claims about his role in the aftermath of 9/11. This man has shifted more than a roller coaster. Rudy is a clownish, arrogant over-reaching contender who won't make it to the finals