"That flag should never be flown over any government building in this country.

Ignoring the racism claim, it's the flag of a treasonous lot. It's not part of my history, it's part of the history of Southern Treason!"

That's absolutely false. The United States of America are supposed to be a VOLUNTARY UNION of INDIVIDUAL STATES. The southern states did not commit treason; they merely chose to leave the Union. Common sense tells me that if you can join the Union, you should be free to leave the Union.

Abraham Lincoln had no business conquering and occupying an independent nation. The southern nation did NOTHING that warranted being conquered.

And anyway, if Jefferson Davis and other southerners are guilty of treason against the Union (as you say), wouldn't General George Washington be guilty of treason against the British Empire?

1: Whenever I used a word like "ludicrous" or "obtuse" this was either before or after an explanation of why.
2: That being said, you seem to have dropped several points. Given the declarations of secession I cited, do you concede the point that the primary motivator for the formation of the CSA was, in fact, the continuation of slavery?
3: Just because I'm of British birth and my family is British does not mean that I'm going to default my own opinion to the opinions of some of history's great Britons. Authority is not an argument.
4: So do you genuinely think the South was correct to rebel? Would the world be a better place if the USA was now divided? When do you think they would have gotten around to ending slavery on their own?
5: So now the Union Jack is offensive? Is the flag of every nation on earth offensive, then, as the US flag and the British flag are? I draw the line rather differently, and say that the flags of groups that rebel against a nation, causing horrific warfare, and cite crimes against humanity as their primary motivation for doing so, should not later fly in that nation's public square. Individuals can do what they like, though it'd be nice if they didn't.

At least we agree on one thing, the US flag must not fly over Parliament. You may want to read "When in the Course of Human Events" by Charles Adams (Rowman and Littlefield, 2000) and learn what your fellow Britons Charles Dickens and Lord Acton thought of the 1861-1865 war. Or you might consider this poem entitled "A REPLY TO THE CONQUERED BANNER" by Sir Henry Houghton, Bart. (1809-1885)

Gallant nation, foiled by numbers!
Say not that your hopes are fled;
Keep that glorious flag which slumbers,
One day to avenge your dead.
Keep it, widowed, sonless mothers!
Keep it, sisters, mourning brothers!
Furl it now, but keep it still–
Think not that its work is done.
Keep it till your children take it,
Once again to hall and make it,
All their sires have bled and fought for;
All their noble hearts have sought for–
Bled and fought for all alone!
All alone! ay, shame the story!
Millions here deplore the stain;
Shame, alas! for England's glory,
Freedom called, and called in vain!
Furl that banner, sadly, slowly,
Treat it gently, for 'tis holy;
Till that day–yes, furl it sadly;
Then once more unfurl it gladly–
Conquered banner! keep it still!

Responses such as "Bizarre", "Obtuse" and "ludicrous" do not make arguments; such is the position of "might makes right." And the Union Jack is offensive. Take it down.

I could certainly see why one would believe the US flag represented treason against the crown. I've actually never been utterly convinced that the US revolution was actually as right, necessary, or heroic as anyone here says (I'm British by birth, and so less inclined to buy automatically into the US side of things). However, the US Flag is not flying over Parliament, and if it were, I would advocate for its removal.

It is well known that many of the founding fathers, Jefferson among them, advocated the freeing of slaves, but compromised on the issue in an effort to (you guessed it) convince the South to join them in the war effort and, later, the Constitution. It would be frankly bizarre to say that the US was founded in order to perpetuate slavery, whereas the Confederacy clearly was.

And bringing up the Louisiana Ordinance of Secession is obtuse in the extreme. The Ordinance merely states the fact of secession, it in no way delves into the reasons for it. Only four states released documents doing so at the time, and each of them lists slavery, three of them at least as the primary motivator.

As for Southerners taking down the only symbol that "uniquely represents them", your comparison is ludicrous. There is no "flag of the North". There's only the flag representing a united nation, with fifty stars and thirteen stripes for every state and every original colony, or the flag that represents the division of the country. The latter does not belong.

First, I never said the flag shouldn't be flown because it's a symbol of racism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I said that it shouldn't be flown by the US government because it's a symbol of opposition to the US government.

Second, there is an enormous difference between the symbol of a country or organization that did bad things and the symbol of a country or organization that was formed specifically for the purpose of doing bad things. German flag? AOK. Nazi flag? Bad.

The US does nasty, evil things sometimes, I certainly don't deny that. But what is your point, exactly? The US shouldn't fly its own flag? People should write off the country they live in and condemn it rather than caring about it and working to make it better? Unlike the CSA, the USA is here and it was founded on some genuinely good ideas. Read the Declaration of Independence some time, then compare it to the Declaration of the Causes of Secession. Which of these documents is worth waving a flag over?

Funny, because the four states that wrote explanation of secession and the vice president of the CSA all thought slavery *was* the reason for the war. Funny how they were all wrong! Glad you explained it for those of us who weren't paying attention.

racisim, hatred, slavery all bad words

anyone dare to think that THE US Flag flew over this country for what?... 100 years while slavery was below it

what does a confederate flag have ANYthing to do with
protecting our borders, jobs back in America, you know things that matter
am I wrong or does something that happened
147 years ago more important than real issuses of today?

PS by the way it was a battle flag– and by the way
the "slave" issue wasn't what the war was about and by the way that slave card came out in Lincoln's term years after the war started- and caused riots in the streets of New York because it was a draft hijinx
and by the way what does that have to do with anyone living today?

history is amazing thing when you actually pay attention to it
I hope the history of electing the right president unfolds

Ron Paul anyone?

Steve from NJ, you may oppose the display of the Southern flag in your belief that it represents racism, but your flag represents lethal violence used to achieve social change–against Native Americans, Mexicans, Southerners, Spaniards, and in this century, mostly the unborn. Your flag is offensive too. You won't understand this unless you have a conscience.

Enlighten us, please, what is this ignorance you're seeing and why is it only coming from Notherners?

Thanks.

And what does all this have to do with the Presidentail debate? You tell me?

No one won that war. How can any side be a winning side when a war happens on our own soil with our own fathers and sons fighting against each other. We all lost. North and South.

To consider it a prideful statement to say that the North won is to be a war-monger. Call yourself a Yankee; call yourself a Rebel: YOU ARE ALL STILL AMERICANS OF MANY COLORS. Get over it.

Someone please remind D. Williams that FALSE PRIDE falls on the Seven Deadly Sins.
Posted By Christopher, Chicago, Illinois : November 29, 2007 2:01 pm

Someone please remind Christopher of Chicago that the idea of the Seven Deadly Sins came from Dante's Inferno and Divine Comedy, books written as pieces of fiction and that were never canonized as scripture. They are opinion pieces, as is his writing. But remember, people, what opinions are like: minds. Some are right, some are definitely wrong, everyone has one (or more), yet all are valuable. We're a democracy, in theory. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion(s), therefore let's respect the voice of everyone and stop with this irritable sniping and actually start discussing facts, rather than trying to prove who has the loudest voice and can say the most controversial thing.

http://www.golden-lamp.com

Go Jesus.

My point is, it has NEVER been fair! The bullies mostly win, thats why we have feel-good movies to compensate our needs to "feel" fair!

The point is: Do you think that you just woke up one day and thought that having an SUV is a must? or that going green is the right thing to do? No, you didnt know what to think until the great American marketing machine bombarded you with certain images days in and days out, and made you think taht it was your ideas to start out with! Yeah, there you go "trend-setters"!

So, do we EVER have an independent view on anything? You can, but you better do you homework. In our world of "give me the info pronto, sum it up for me in a minute, will ya!" culture, you can bet most voters vote based on an impression rather than facts and substances. How do you think we got Jr. Bushie and that we in this Iraq mess to begin with? Rest asured, the 4th wing of govt is stronger than you think!

The Confederate flag represents division, and hatred of the USA.

Confederate flag lovers need to get over it. There will never be a Confederate States of America. The Union won the war. Let in go.

States rights was a cover for the real issue of slavery, not vice versa. How else do you explain the fact that the confederate states demanded that Northern states be forced to obey the *federal law* that required them to return freed slaves to their owners?

Check out your history books.

Its just a symbol. There is no greater truth in a couple yards of cloth. Sometimes it just doesn't have an intrinsic value.

Ignoring the racism claim, it's the flag of a treasonous lot. It's not part of my history, it's part of the history of Southern Treason!

Seriously, it's become a racist symbol even if it wasn't intended as one. The former Confederates are now the most loyal Americans, so it isn't being flown as a sign of insurgency. It should never be bought with public money, or flown at a public area unless it's a cemetery, and the same goes for THUG LIFE t-shirts.

Posted By Matthew, Des Moines Iowa : November 28, 2007 10:58 pm"

Well Matthew...Rev. Jesse and Rev. Al use these two words in EVERY speech that they make. So thank you for defining their character!! Kudos to you, Matthew!

....AND....

No one won, you twit. Next time use a dictionary to help with your spelling. It is spelled SOUTHERNERS.

I'll laugh if I see this actually posted because CNN is a "yankee-based" network.