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What about Joseph Smith's false prophesies? ... I had asked this question earlier and still haven't gotten any response to this. The Bible says that even one false prophecy condemns the 'prophet'. I am sure you will have an answer for this and every other question that I can come up with – that is clear... I'm sure that you and other Mormons had wanted answers to these questions yourselves... and it is also apparent that based on our ( original, mainstream Christians vs Joseph Smith and Mormon Christians ) different interpretations of the Bible that 'answers' will always be found. So I believe ( and I see that you do also ) that the ultimate answer comes from what you feel in your heart. And that is tricky because it's obviously not the same as reading it in black and white on paper. Outside influences can lead you in one direction or another without you even realizing it. Mormons here have said that God has told them the truth thru His spirit in prayer... I know I can't really question that – it is your personal experience but I can say that you should be completely alert to any outside influences that might be present. God gave us minds with the capability to think logically and sensibly (and along with that ofcourse He gave us our free will). I think this is a good point to include the following words by an ex Mormon..."Mormonism is a cult because it HUMANIZES God, DEIFIES man and minimizes sin" and also minimizes the sacrifice of our Lord's death on the cross as not being the way of our COMPLETE salvation....what does your heart TRULY tell you about this?

Kelly,
Thank you for your post / explanations, I have a response to your comments, I will send it soon.

Anyone who knows anything about the Mormon Church knows the Mormon Church refuses to back any candidate, anywhere in the entire world. The members are reminded of this by letter from the First Presidency read from the pulpit at the beginning of every political season. It is available to the world on their website. This has been policy for more than 100 years (obviously before the internet).

Whoever is guilty of this mail fraud here is assuming SC voters are both ignorant and bigoted. The SC voters should be greatly offended as they are victims of the bigotry as well.

Kay,
One last short answer to your last question about believing that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and why. We are not only allowed but encouraged to study, to question and then to ask God if this is true or if any principle is true. I and most Mormons have done that and God has told us spirit to spirit that it is true, and so the answer is simple.

God told Joseph Smith that his name would be known for good and for ill throughout the world. His name would be spoken of for good and for evil. (Pretty big claim for a 14 yr old boy in rural NY in 1820). I know his name for good, you speak of it as evil. It is about that simple. Many didn't believe Noah or Peter or Paul or even Christ, but many did.

If I have offended any for any of my remarks I apologize. I really wish only to help people understand what Mormons believe. I feel that if people really knew, our doors would be so filled with the honest in heart that we would not have space to put everyone. I consider all who accept Jesus as their savior and do not fight against Him or against those who accept him, as a brother or sister.

Kay continued.
As far as becoming Gods, our enemies talk a lot more about this that we do. We do believe what the Bible says as I noted in John 17 where it says that we will be given the glory which Christ has. The Bible also says we will be “joint heirs’ with Christ. It says in 1 John that when He appears, we will be ‘like him’. That is enough to support our view. God is our Father and thus desires us to be like Him as a father desires a son to grow up to be a man like himself.

The Bible does say that God is a spirit. It also says He is love, and that He is light. When you die, your spirit will continue to live while your body rots. What are you, body or spirit? Which is the real you? Yes, God is spirit, but so are men and women, and that doesn’t mean we do not have bodies. One of the great truths of the restoration is that the Father and Son are separate and distinct personages with glorified and perfected bodies. You will be resurrected and guess what, you will still be a spirit, but with an immortal body.

These doctrines are true revelations of God’s word and by your interpretation blasphemous. Christ was accused of blasphemy more than any other accusation, but it wasn’t so.
We do focus on Christ, but we also recognize the reality of Satin and his deceptions. My goodness they are real and all around the earth.
I am sorry that you do not recognize our reverence for Christ and for our Heavenly Father. Again, that lack of recognition does not mean we do not reverence them. I know with all my heart and being that Christ lives. I hear the testimonies our people all the time to the same fact. I hear our teaching of Him and our proclaiming our faith and His name as ours. I know that He is my redeemer, my savior, my lord and all I do is for Him. I love and respect and reverence Him and bow at His power and majesty. I know that someday I will see him and feel his loving embrace. I know that I will bow and with my tears wet his Holy feet and because of His mercy and love I will dwell eternally with Him, and with My Heavenly Father. By His gift I have life eternal. He lives, He lives, all glory to His name. He lives, He lives, my Savior still the same.

I am sorry you feel how you do. Your salvation is between God and you. We (Mormons) do not say that you will not be saved for any reason you mention. We allow you to believe and worship how and what you may. All will sometime know all truth and have the chance to accept or reject it. I will leave that at that.

Your comments about the temple are off base. Since you have not gone, you do not know. I did not look at your link. There are some who are disturbed by the temple. I don’t think you would ever understand in your current state of mind. Is the priesthood Biblical? The temple has to do with priesthood. The priesthood and temple blessings are open to the members of the church, hence the tearing of the early temple veil. Hebrews says that no man taketh this honor unto himself, except he is called as was Aaron. Aaron was called and washed, anointed with oil and clothed with the robes of the priesthood (see Exodus). That is the basis of the temple work. Most members go back on a regular basis as a part of their worship, but one can worship in their own home, in their closet, in their church and in the wilderness and does not have to worship only in the temple.
You say there are no “requirements” in the Bible beyond belief. Again I think you are not reading the entire Bible. Christ told Nicodemus that a man must be born of the water and the spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. There are many other references to the necessity of baptism. Christ taught that a man’s heart and actions are needed and not just belief, over and over. It is so clear in the New Testament. Other Christian chrurches recognize it as a requirement.

This is 1/10th of what I could write and I could give you verse by verse, but there is not room. Again, we know and love Jesus Christ as our Savior and recognize that he talked again to a young boy prophet in New York and that which was revealed to this boy, Joseph Smith was the word of God designed to bring us to Jesus Christ. May you feel the reverence we have for God. I am so glad that you love God and Christ and reverence them. This is good. Would that all the peoples of the earth did the same, and then the wars and hate and bigotry would end. Kelly

Kay
Kay,

I would like to respond to a couple of your questions. I hope to do so in a non-contentious way for contention is of the devil. I see that there is an in pass on things. Obviously what you and I believe is from God and what is from the devil are different things and certainly one thing is true, we can not both be correct. There are different interpretations of the Bible, yours, ours, and others. The Bible says that no passage of the scripture is of private interpretation, but is to be interpreted by revelation as it was given. Again we believe in revelation from God today, and that God called Joseph Smith and subsequently other prophets and that it is His word that comes through them. I assume that you would agree that prophets are Biblical.

As far as your question about ONE God, you are correct. This was directed at people who lived in a time when there was a plurality of gods. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans had many gods. You have heard some of their names, Zeus, Saturn, Venous, Mars etc. Some worshiped the earth and stars and the sun and moon, or animals, cattle, birds etc. God taught that there was one God, mighty and above all. That God was our father. Yet it is interesting that in Genesis when man was made, the scripture says, “Let US go down and make man in OUR image”. It is certain that we recognize our Heavenly Father as God and when we talk of God we most often refer to Him. It is certain that Jesus Christ is also God, even Jehovah born as a man. It is clear that when He was baptized and at the mount of transfiguration the Father proclaimed Him to be His Son, in whom He was well pleased. It is clear that Christ prayed to the Father many times, prayed in the garden that not His will, but that of the Father would be done. He cried out on the cross that His Father’s presence seemed to be gone, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” Yet these two are one.

Now how are they one? The doctrine of the trinity says “one essence”. This is something that admittedly no human can really understand, a mystery. Christ made it rather clear in his great intercessory prayer in John 17. Read this. He prayed in fact for us, you and I who believe, that we would be ONE with Him, even as He was one with the father, that we would receive the Glory that He had with the Father before the earth was created (In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and was God.) Now if we become ONE even As they are one, will we be part of the trinity? Obviously not. A husband and wife are to be one. We in the church are to be one. One implies unity, not of the same essence. The only way those in 325 in Nicaea could explain the difficulty scriptures of one God and the duel nature of the Father and Son was by the doctrine of the trinity, but they missed the mark. Again, this is our interpretation of the scriptures, but it is as valid as yours as an interpretation, and only one is right. I respect your choice to believe as you believe and ask you to respect ours. You may not believe it, but you can’t say we do not believe in the Bible.

When we talk of “God”, it really doesn’t matter if it is the Father or the Son in most cases, because of this unity. They are one in purpose, in power, in mercy, in love etc. Yet they are separate in roles and as personages. When we say God loves us, it could be either. It is both etc.

to all the people who claim to want peace but quickly label others bigots if they disagree with someone else's beliefs and voice their opinions accordingly...

I haven't PRE judged... I have done research on the internet, and have asked questions and put things out here on this site hoping to get answers, confirmations or explanations, which I am still waiting for. And I have listened to responses with an open mind. I am also not intolerant of Mormon believers just because I don't agree with their beliefs. Calling me a bigot makes you ignorant ( def. destitute of knowledge or education ).

I have a right to ask questions, gather information ( my way ) and then form an opinion about the Mormon religion ( especially because my next president could be a Mormon ) and that doesn't make me a bigot...

I really don't get how I am 'bashing' another's religion just because I am asking questions and expressing opposing views...

To all so called Christians bashing other religions:

Just going through the dictionary and as a community service wanted to add a passage from Websters dictionary:

Big-ot A person of strong conviction of prejudice especially in matters of religion, race or politics, who is in-tolerant of those who differ with him.

Big-ot-ed Being or characteristic of a bigot.

May this year be one filled with peace and tolerance.
Best regards,
Iamlancalot

Kay : Talk about brainwashed. You talk about things that don't even make any sense. I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God because I studied the teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and then I exercised my freedom of choice and with a sincere and humble heart I knelt in prayer and in the name of Jesus Christ I asked to know if the things that I studied are true and by the power of the Holy Ghost I received that Joseph Smith is indeed the prophet of the restoration and that the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has indeed been restored to the earth in its fulness. What a glorious blessing! I am very interested in how you know anything about the symbols you speak of in the garments of the church. How you get that there is anything satanic about them. Please explain the satanic symbols on any of our church meeting houses or temples. That is absolutely crazy. As for the ability to question things in the church we are encouraged to question and to seek and find for ourselves the answers to our questions. I can tell you that there probably isn`t a question that you or anyone else could have that the answer cannot be given to you from a member of the church. I appears to me that you really aren`t interested in learning the truth of the church, only in maligning it with outright untruths. Once again I will pray for you.

Kelly (continued)
I just don't get it... I have asked before and have not received any answers yet... I'll ask again.. what is it that makes people believe Joseph Smith's claims??? Would any Mormon even dare to question if he is a true prophet?? Are you not ALLOWED to question? How can you ignore the things that go on in the temple ceremonies and oaths that you must take that Jesus FORBIDS doing...
Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne...
5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

You CANNOT separate these temple practices from the Mormon religion – they come from the same man. Why would you continue to follow this religion with all the anti Christian things blatanly in plain sight? The satanic symbols on the churches and the temple undergarments, the lack of any Christian symbols on any temples – NO CROSSES????? Let me ask you... who else does not like this symbol??? – What would it take for a Mormon believer to finally realize the truth?? What more do you need??? How many more 'explanations' are you willing to accept for all of these questionable things?? And I wonder how many more 'adjustments' or corrections to Joseph Smith's doctrines will be made so that this 'religion' is more acceptable. Isn't your salvation and your relationship with God the most important thing?...what else could be more important that would keep you from the TRUTH?

Kay: It is you who are being deceived. Every church on this earth today, with the exception of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints, is a sect that branched off from another. Years ago a very learned member of the Roman Catholic Church once said, QUOTE "You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the postition of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong ; if you are right, we are wrong and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days." UNQUOTE I'm sorry but I can't think of the name of this man right now.
LDS members know exactly who we worship and that is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father. The same that was born to the virgin Mary in Bethlehem. We are good living people who believe in loving, serving and growing towards perfection. We do not drink, smoke, do drugs, curse and swear, cheat, lie and so on. We believe in living the laws of the land, paying an honest tithing, serving our fellowmen, we live the law of chastity, we love our families and believe that they can be eternal and live our lives in a way that will make that happen, we have a welfare system second to none, we are one of the first peoples on the scene of any disaster willing to sacrifice what we have been blessed with to those who are in need. No we are not perfect. We are human and we do make mistakes. But we are not a deceived people. Have you ever asked yourself what Joseph Smith ever gained from telling about his vision in the grove? Certainly not peace or wealth. Also I would like to address your comments about the temple. You state that we want to forget what has taken place in the temple when we leave there. Where do you get such incorrect information? Being a part of the temple is one of the most beautiful experiences I have ever had. It is the same every time that I attend. I pray that you will stop listening to whoever is telling you so much garbage about the church and wonder why they are doing it. Our souls are not in peril with the way we live our lives even if when we get to heaven we find out that we are not the right church on the earth.( And I have no doubts that that will NOT be the case.) I will pray for you.

Kelly, I am sorry that you and all of the other followers of Joseph Smith are being deceived by this man. THAT is what satan wants. Another Mormon poster stated that Mormons don't like to think about satan, they would rather focus on Christ, well I can agree with that, I would rather think about Christ also but the reality is that satan is in this world and his goal is to deceive and lie and take souls. What better way to do it that to trick / deceive people into believing they are worshiping the correct God when they really aren't. Satan is at work and you shouldn't ignore it or you may be the one that is deceived.

It is so clear to me that Mormons are the ones that have so much to lose if they are wrong… you are the ones who lack wholehearted reverence for Him….

So I'll ask again…WHY is it unfortunate that " many have ears which will not hear and eyes and will not see"? We are following the same Bible that you ( Mormons ) claim to be following… are we, mainstream Christians, not going to be saved because we want to give ALL the credit to God for our salvation? or because we want to worship God as the One and only instead of becoming gods equal with Him? Or for not wanting to believe that Jesus and lucifer were brothers, once equal or that God was once an imperfect man like us? Or for not believing that man will have multiple wives and therefore multiple sex relations in heaven? Or for not believing in a man that boasts that he has accomplished more that Jesus?
Basically for giving TOO MUCH reverence to God???

And I noticed that you didn't have much to say about the Mormon temple ceremony link that I posted. I'm not surprised because it states right in the beginning of the article that most Mormons who do go thru a temple ceremony don't want to think about about it afterwards, that they try to put it out of their minds. You say that the temple and the 'sacred' things that happen there are 'open' to anyone…BUT only once you have been baptized into the Mormon 'religion' "for that is the requirement"… mainstream Christianity has no such requirements to join in worshiping God. Nothing should stand in the way of someone who wants to be closer to God and worship Him. That's why the curtain in the temple was torn at the moment that Jesus died on the cross.
Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Kelly,
You say that God did not speak to those who formed the Nicene Creed because it is not Biblical…that's according to the Mormon interpretation of the Bible. The traditional mainstream Christian belief is that the Bible CLEARLY states Christ's Deity ( which I see that you acknowledge ) AND the Bible also clearly states that there is only ONE God which Mormons do not acknowledge. Mormons believe that Jesus and God are two separate gods right? There is ONE God and that is Biblical fact…

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

James 2:19 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

( just wondering…in your response, every time you mention god, how am I supposed to know which god you are talking about?? How do Mormons know which god is being spoken of in the Bible??)

And also…
The Mormon doctrine that all will become gods equal with God is NOT Biblical.

The Mormon doctrine that God is of flesh and bones as tangible as man's – Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22… is NOT Biblical….
John 4:24 Jesus said: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Mormon doctrine that Jesus and satan were spirit brothers is NOT Biblical.

The Mormon doctrine that we can become rulers of our own planet is NOT Biblical.

The Mormon doctrine that God was once an imperfect man who worked his way to godhood and was then given his own planet to rule ( by WHO?? ) is NOT Biblical.
I could go on and on.

Not only are these doctrines not Biblical but they are non-reverential and BLASPHEMOUS.

Right on Kelly. Maybe they will post this one.

Kay,
P.S.
I quickly read the first reference.
It says the following:
It must first be admitted that Jesus never defines His place in the Trinity in theological language.

We agree with this and virtually everything written in the articl in regads to the description of Christ's divinity(which I am sure comes as a surprise to you). We do not agree with the final statement defining the Trinity, that Christ and the Father are of one substance. We do believe that Christ was begotton of the Father in spirit before the world was created, and that He was the creator of the world under the direction of the Father. He (Jehovah, Christ, The Lord, the I Am,) then came to the earh, was born of the Virgin Mary as the only Begotten Son of God int he flesh and died for us, atoning for our sins in His death. He was resurrected and lives today.

Is Christ the Son of God as the Bible teaches? If so, then how? (We believe that he is, both in the spirit before the beginning (as in the creed) and in the flesh in the meridian of time (as in the Bible).)

Kay,

Briefly, in response. I am not saying that God "could not' have spoken to those who invented the Nicean creed, only that He didn't , for it is not Biblical.

Certainly Christ is divine. He is the very Jehovah of the Old Testament, is the Creator of all things, is the God of Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, John, Paul, and of Moroni, Mormon, Joseph Smith and the Latter-Day Saints. (I didn't read your reference) for I know that Christ is divine, as the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the LDS church teaches.

When I said, "only the Bible", it was in reference to the creeds, which we do not accept. Again the creeds are the interpretation of the scriptures and they were wrong on some things.

"We" – I speak of we as members of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". There are not 100s of Mormon divisions. There are some apostate groups it is true. There are no contradictions within the scripures of the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (which includes the Holy Bible).

Mormons accept all of the Bible as being the Word of God. Your interpretation of some verses is apparently dfferent than ours (as noted in Rev 22:18-19 for example).

I have been to the temple and the sacred things that happen there are open to you or anyone who is willing to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, willing to be baptized by someone who has been called of God and given the authority to do that baptism, and willing to make covenants to follow Jesus Christ with all your heart, mind and strength, for that is the requirements of going to the temple.

I am sorry that you feel that I and Latter-day Saints are followers of Satin, for that is what Satin wants you to believe. I know Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, as my Lord and my King. I know God the Eternal Father as my Father and have felt His love and spirit in my life many times and have felt His spirt witness to me the things I read in the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. I love Christ and worship Him, the very Christ of the Holy Bible, the same Bible you read. God lives and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His church. He loves you, and he loves all people on the earth. He will open the door to all who honestly seek him. We as members of the church reach out to any one who will listen with an open and honest heart. We deny none and believe that before the judgement day, all who every have lived upon the earth will get a chance to hear of, understand and accept Jesus Christ as their savior, as we have done. May the Lord bless you, I pray.

Unfortunatly there are many who have ears which will not hear and have eyes and will not see.

Jessie, West Virginia,

Not sure what you are referring to...if it is to my 'editing' my posts, yes.. I am not taking these debates lightly, there is a lot at stake here... the more I read about Joseph Smith's 'religion' the more motivated I am to speak out and I just want to get my points across the best that I can.

I want peace also and I can certainly understand the anger and frustration of Mormons who feel like they and their religion are constantly getting 'attacked ' but I've noticed the tendancy to lump every anti-mormon into the catagory of hate and bigotry and you should know that there are MANY Christians who believe that these teachings that you are following are detrimental to your eternal soul and THAT is their motivation .... no Mormon here is implying that the reverse is true... that our souls will be lost for not following Joseph Smith's teachings.... so we have legitimate, sincere reasons for speaking out against Mormonism but I am not quite understanding the 'true' motivation behind the many requests by Mormons for me to talk to their missionarys. And also why what ever the missionarys would say could not be posted here??? Why do I have to talk to someone in person??
I have to honestly say that I am very suspicious of motive.... but I am not saying that I am necessarily suspicious of the believers but I AM DEFINITELY suspicious of the teachings of Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion's aggresive ' recruiting ' tactics that scream CULT at every turn.

To Kay–pardon me of my unedited script.

"Otherwise–let's have peace."

Kelly,
Are you saying that God could not have talked to the people who formed the Nicene Creed?? Your statement that "the true nature of God was lost" couldn't have been based on the New Testament of the Bible because it abounds with not only Jesus' own words supporting His Deity but also that of the Apostles. Anyone confused about the Deity of Jesus Christ, this link (REFERENCING THE BIBLE) will clearly explain it...
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/deityofx.html

And Kelly... can you define 'we' in "We accept only what the Bible teaches.." because apparently there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism and all of their scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points.
So far I haven't notice Mormons accepting very much of what the Bible teaches at all... but you accept ALL the writings of Joseph Smith who "claims" to be a prophet... just because God can speak to man today doesn't mean he spoke to Joseph Smith... of all the Mormons here defending this 'religion'... have any gone thru an actual Temple ceremony and sworn oaths about secrets and rites? If you haven't then you don't know all there is to know about Mormonism and if you have and are still a Mormon you are in DENIAL and are either knowingly or unknowingly a follower of satan.

http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/doombook/doomtext/01mtod.htm

To Mormon believers,
What about Joseph Smith's many false prophesies? For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts the prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).

Nice card. I dont see the problem of it. Its the main book of his church he should stand by his beliefs. We all have beliefs, even atheists have them.

I think America are very tolerant and will realize that most politicians just use religion to appear normal, to appear like one of us. Deep inside we all read our religious books, but go on living our lives the way we want to and not the way we are told to by some book or bible. Even if the book has some silly things to say.

I doubt Huckabee is any more a suspect than a democrat or a disgruntled Mormon. At the time of the posting of the card, Romney was seen as a strong leader and a competitor would wish to face a weaker candidate seen as Huckabee. Hence if your trying to point fingers who did this dirty trick it could be anyone wanting to move the power around.

Hello R,

I do have some responses to your points.. It seems that you are under the impression that the Protestant belief is that you can do all the bad things you want and still be saved if you have said the right words...I think that is probably the most misunderstood doctrine from the Mormon's point of view... it is ludacris to think that that would be the case. When my pastor asks people if they would like to accept Christ as their savior, after he has led them in the prayer, he says that if you said those words AND YOU MEANT IT the Bible says that you are saved. key words... AND YOU MEANT IT. That you TRULY repented and asked for Jesus to come into your HEART. If He is truly in your heart you won't go and commit all of these sins. Remember God cares about what is in our hearts... I'm sure you agree with that. And if you have Jesus in your heart how could you NOT go and do good works?? Wouldn't they come naturally?

As to judgement and reward... I think these words are being taken out of context if you think they have the same meaning as salvation in the Rev. & Matthew verses. I'll try to explain... you stated ( as I did ) how it doesn't make any sense to think that someone could be saved just by SAYING those certain words... for the obvious reasons... so what if one person does do ALL they can do ( although I don't think it is possible ) and another person does just a small portion of what they could do... wouldn't you have a problem with that also... if both received the same REWARD in heaven? The Protestant belief is that we are STILL judged and rewarded based on what is written in the Book of Life..on our works.. BUT our SALVATION comes from faith APART from works. ( sorry.. I don't have an answer as to what our rewards will be but I don't have to know ALL the answers in order to believe )( that statement is partly directed at the athiests out there who might be reading). This view just seems to make so much more sense.. I mean how can someone do ALL they can do? And again, I ask, what if someone doesn't do ALL they can do? Well, it seems to me that that is where judgement and reward would come in. Unless, of course, they don't receive salvation all together because they didn't do ALL they could do. I also wanted to mention that in those verses in Rev. & Matthew faith and grace are NOT mentioned and you have acknowledged that those are also required for salvation so since they are not mentioned in these verses I think it supports what I am saying that these verses are NOT talking about salvation. Context is the key in all of these verses we are debating and I think I proved the context here for the words judgement and reward and earlier in James 2:14-26 for the word faith.

To Plane - re. Revelations 22

You probably do not even know that John wrote Revelations about 80 AD and then 10 years later he (added to the word and) wrote the gospel of John. Five years after John wrote Revelations and Rev 22:18, Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew and Luke wrote the gospel of Luke and Acts in 85AD.

I guess they did not understand Rev 22:18 the same way you and so many others do who think it applies to the Bible. The Bible was not 'compiled' in 80 AD (not until about 400 AD). The term Bible does not occur in the Bible, much less in Revelations.

As noted Deut. says to not add to the word. God is the one who adds to the word through his prophets.

Are you saying that God could not call and talk to a Prophet today? Are you saying He could not have talked to prophets in Ancient America? Are you saying that if those prophets wrote what they were inspired to write from God that it would not be scripture? Is God not able to add to his own word? Perhaps people and churches have it so right in the world that we do not need God today, do not need a prophet, and do not need a word of clarification.

We (Latter day Saints) believe in a God who can and did talk to man again. That is good news.

The true nature of God was lost by 325 AD when the Niciean creed was formulated and then cemented by the Council of Constantinople in 381. The holy trinity was defined. By then the church leaders had defined 'another Christ' and another Gospel from that which Paul knew. God restored the fullness of the original Gospel and the true nature of Christ and the Father in 1830. One may choose to look into this miraculous truth, or choose to fight against it and ignore it.

Protestants reject most of the creeds of the Catholic Church, but accept the first several while Latter Day Saints reject all of them including the first (the concept of the Trinity). We accept only what the Bible teaches and it does not teach the trinity.

Also I completely disagree with your analysis of Hukabee (A keynote speaker at a Baptist conference in Salt Lake City several years ago – directed at the Latter Day Saint People – full of anti-Mormons) and Romney. Each is free to believe what he wishes to believe.

Plane-

In Deuteronomy 4:2 The Lord says the same thing to the Israeites. So what was added? The additional books of the Bible (after Deuteronomy) or additional scriptures, The Book of Mormon, Koran, etc. or was it additional gospel teachings? Many of these have shown up in many religions, even the Jewish.

Everyone just needs to leave religion out of politics, period!

Plane–

Funny, people that quote Rev 22:18 usually have no clue what it means....this appears to be the case for you

I'm glad to see that a lot of people here are getting the main point of why the fake Christmas card was offensive, although a few of you seem to have missed it.

The offensiveness of the card does not come from the Book of Mormon quote, however inflammatory the bolding of certain words may be. It does not come from the Orson Pratt quote, however obscure, irrelevant, or out-of-context it may be. (And I acknowledge that, of the three, it may only qualify as 'obscure'.) It DOES come from the use of Romney's name, and, worse, the use of the image and name of the Boston Temple.

If a private individual, candidate, or group wanted to use the exact same scriptural passage and Pratt quote, but mail it out under their own name, that would not be any more offensive than your average anti-Mormon tract. No, I'm not exactly enamored with anti-Mormon tracts, but they are perfectly legal. The fake Christmas card is FRAUD. That is neither legal nor defensible.

After reading only the first few paragraphs from the press release on the book it is clear that this is another book full of nothing but garbage.

The real Mitt can be found by reading the new book, "Mitt, Set Our People Free! at http://www.therevelationpress.com.

Man oh man.

Someone quotes the book of Mormon verbatim and the cry and hue of bigotry is deafening.

And look at all those willing to instantly point fingers without even a shred of proof.

The fact is, Mike Huckabee has more honor and integrity in his little toe than Mitt Romney and his entire band of supporters have in their entire being.

And when you, the unchristian, have an answer for Rev 22:18, do let us know.

I the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Amos 3 : 7. We all agree that God is unchanging – that he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow – If this were not true – this scripture would be false – therefore the scriptures would be false and if the scriptures were false we are all wrong. This is why God is always the same – this is why the rules are still the same today as they were then – so i ask you – if your pastor, reverend, minister, evangelist or clergy does not have authority from god – then who gave it to them? They went to school to gain a degree in theology – as it turns out – religion is big business in this country – they expect to be paid hansomely for what they do and they are. lets take a look at televangelist – the super big churches they preach from every sunday asking for money – the cars – the clothing and jewelry – with their lips they draw close to god, but their hearts are far from him. I have been to many churches around the world – I was a young man serving in the United States Marine Corps and this is just a little of what i saw about the so called great religions you speak of. White southern baptists do not like black southern baptist – white southern baptists have sunday school lessons on how to bash other religions, especially members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. Talk about egos well the pentacostals and jehovas witnesses have that one all to themselves – they rule their wives – their wives can do nothing except they get permission to do so from their husband. hmm.... that does not seem right at all – the born again christian churches – wow – they are pretty far from the truth – they use the NIV which completely retranslates the bible – just like the jehovas witnesses do – they hold their hands up in the air and praise God the whole time while they are passing the loot bag around. It would seem that religion today is just as far gone as it was when emperor constantine brought all the religious minds of the time together in nicea – of course the apostles were already murdered and gone from the earth – this is also known as the dark ages – anyway, they all sat down together in a great big room and brought about their own doctrine and definition of christianty – kinda like the same way some christian churches have done so they can exclude others from being christian. Bigotry, well let me tell ya – they have that one all sewn up too – i have found that if you tell people you are christian, baptist, methodist, episcapaian, catholic or whatever other religion – it is ok with people – but if one states that one is a mormon – then one gets hounded and persecuted to no end – we all say, "if i were living during the time of christ or the apostles, i would be on the lords side." would you truely be on the lords side? Jesus stated the people the same thing – except he used "prophets." all the prophets and apostles of the old and new testaments were called by god. Samuel was a young boy when he was called – why could that not happen during our time? Does god not love us as much as he loved them? the bible states that man can not direct his own foot steps. Are we to let ourselves be led blindly by others that do not have authority from god, but it is given them by a college or other seminary school? I can become a minister by sending away to an add in the back of some magazine – would that give me the authority? Where did John the baptist get his authority from? from heaven or man? why wouldn't god do the same for us? some say he can not – then I ask: who are you to say what God can and can not do? If God can not give authority to someone then how did that man get his authority to speak to men in the name of God? I have heard some demand that God give them a sign – and yes it was on an anti-mormon tape – I thought, "wow," she just demanded god give her a sign – It states in the bible that it is a wicked and adulterous people that seek after signs. which brings me to another scripture in the bible where god actually states that you should ask him for the truth and he will tell you, but you have to have faith that he will tell you the truth, nothing wavering. for he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. this, however, is not asking or demanding a sign – this asking the God the father for the truth one needs to gain his/her own salvation that can only be through my own savior who is also the savior of the world and all who have, are and will ever live on the face of this earth. I have to hand it to the mormons – all the persecution they put up with – it is absolutely astounding – I must say that kind of persecution demands some investigating on my part – and i will ask God in the name Jesus Christ – and not some pastor or minister. I will go straight to the top for my answers to religion.

Hi Kathy-

The Mormon faith agrees that there is nothing we could do without the Lord...we would be lost forever without his sacrifice, no matter if we were completely obedient, no matter what we did in this life. In the Book of Mormon a great prophet name King Benjamin taught this principle in Mosiah 2:21....

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

The verses that follow reiterate verse 21....

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

We are all lacking in the sight of the Lord. No matter how much we do or give, we will all be short at Judgement Day. That is the reason He gave his life...to make up for where we we fall short.........HOWEVER, it is up to us to obey. We cannot say "I accept the Lord as my Savior" and then at a later day choose not to obey, not repent, and expect to automatically get in because we "accepted" the Lord earlier in our life. This is the problem with the protestant beliefs. It submits that believing is everything and actions are only "nice to haves". If actions are not essential, what sense would Rev. 20:12-13 and Matt 16:27 make? You say it refers to Judgement and Reward, not salvation. From your point of view, what is this reward? That I will have three trumpets in heaven instead of 1? That I will have a better choir voice than others? The reward spoken of is the glory of eternal life with our Heavenly Father. All will be resurrected, but not all will live with our Father in Heaven again. Again, I don't know how you can take the liberty to change what the words say in the Bible, but in Rev 20:12-13 it says we are judged by our works, not FAITH. (speaking of changing the words in the Bible, I too have read the NIV and if you compare it to the earlier KJV, they are barely similar. You were talking about adding and deleting....I agree with Annie, the NIV does this as well as change meaning and context.)

Kathy....are you serious about Heb 5:9???? Of course those that obey are going to be "believers of the word" and "doers of the word". Doing means acting. Again, it says nothing here of faith.....you can try to insert the word here all you want...it simply is not found in the verse. The word is obey, which implies action. In fact, the previous verse (Heb 5:8) speaks of the action that the Lord himself took in obedience to His Father. His works were perfect. If it were not for His perfect works, He would not have been perfect. Hypothetically, He could have had faith, but it wouldn't have served anything were it not for his perfect obedience to His Father and His sinless life. It is action the Savior took. When He proposed the higher law in chapter 5 of Matthew, do you think he was just kidding when He said, "Be ye therefore perfect." ? Why command if there is no reward or consequence to adherence of the commandment?

Kathy, you asked about who gave authority to Joseph Smith. Christ did. Give the Mormon missionaries one hour of your time (much less than the amount of time you have dedicated to writing in this blog), and the full gospel of Jesus Christ will be laid out before you. You will feel the Holy Spirit testify to you of the truthfulness of what they share, just like the Lord promised in John 14:26...the same way that Peter received a witness in Matt 16:17. If it isn't true, you won't feel the Comfortor as John 14:26 says. The Lord promised to "bring all things to your rememberance", and he will do this for you.

The missionaries will share with you the good news Williams, (your religion's founder) was waiting for: Authority, apostles, and ordinances. I am not making up Williams' words or beliefs. Keller's branches sprout from the roots that Williams planted, from Williams' tree. Even Williams acknowledged that HE did NOT have the authority. If he didn't have the authority, how could Keller, a branch from the tree. Without the authority one cannot speak for or act in the name of God. The Lord says as much in Luke 9:1-2, John 15:16, and Matt 21:23-27. The Prophet Joseph Smith was given this authority from the Lord. It has been passed down by the laying on of hands until this day. A prophet lives on the Earth today. He is the Lord's servent and mouthpiece. Can you imagine living in the time of Moses, Abraham, Noah, and Peter? Can you imagine what it would be like to have a prophet that the Lord communicated with, living today. It is true and you have the opportunity to hear him.

Good luck and God bless.

–R

Kathy of Sarasota,

I too have an NIV Bible. I am currently studying the Old Testament using the King James Version of the Bible as well as the NIV Bible. It is pretty interesting lining these two documents up together and seeing what things have changed. Interesting to be sure.

Hello R,

Yes,yes,yes, I agree, works is the way by which a person shows his/her faith, I have stated that in my previous posts and I also believe that we will be judged by our works.... I don't dispute that.... what I am disputing is the Mormon doctrine that says that works are REQUIRED ( in addition to faith ) in order to receive salvation...as I've stated many times.... I'll repeat the Book of Mormon scripture again..."...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23),

... so that means that if someone does not do ALL that they can do, like for example doesn't give ALL the money that they could have given, then they will not receive salvation? It seems pretty clear that that's the case.
Who would be saved then? No one because no one could possible do all they could have done in there lifetime. Don't you see the problem with that?? So we are 100% dependent on God's saving grace. And at this point I will state again that that doesn't mean that I believe that good works are not required... they are just not required in order to receive God's saving grace of salvation.

The verses you quoted: Rev 20:12-13, Matt 16:27, and Phili 2:12 do not support 2 Nephi 25:23... the first two are referencing Judgement and reward – not salvation . In Phili 2:12 the word 'work' is a verb – not the same as 'works'.

Heb 5:9 ....unto all them that obey him ( the obedience that comes from receiving / accepting God's saving grace )

R, you keep stating how clear these verses are but what is clear to me is that either side can take any of this out of context. The concept of context and interpretation compounded by translation upon translation pretty much makes the entire Bible debatable if one chooses to debate it. I choose to believe the Bible in it's entirety... I believe it is the information that God has chosen to give to us just as it is ( and just as it was when others received it thru out history ) and we have the free will to interpret it however we want, accept it or reject it.(or change or add to it but we have been warned in the Bible against doing these things)
I believe that how we choose to interpret it or what we choose to believe is going to be based soley on what is in our hearts. And that is what God is ultimately interested in. My heart tells me to humbly accept God's gift of salvation, acknowledging that there is NOTHING that I could do myself to EARN this gift and then do good works out of love and gratitude for this incredible grace that He has given me.

And I wanted to address this... you asked who gave Bill Keller the authority to tell the world what the Bible means but I'm still waiting for an answer to that same question concerning Joseph Smith....

Kathy for Sarasota: Latter-Days Saints do not minimize the Savior's atonement by believing in good works as a necessary requirement. We recognize that we will always be indebted to our Savior. There is nothing we can do to be fully out of His debt but we know that as long as we do the very best that we can then the atonement makes up the difference. And our Heavenly Father and our Savior Jesus Christ know what is in our hearts as well as the works that we do.

Hi Kathy–

Thanks for your response. You asked what other verses support 'my' doctrine (of course it is not my doctrine)....I will get to what the Lord's doctrine says. But first, you forgot to mention two other scriptures that 'support' your claim:

1) Acts 16:31 when Paul told the Phillipian jailer, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

2) Romans 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth......the just shall live by faith"

Quite simply (and I don't know how to say it any other way), works is the way by which a person shows his/her have faith AND ultimately the way by which he/she will be judged. Let me elaborate:

Peter and Paul's writings concerning salvation were hard to understand. This is probably why Luther wrote to Philip Melancthon and said, "We must sin as long as we are in the flesh...Sin cannot separate us from God, even if we were to commit a thousand adulteries and as many homocides." (Christian Apologies Vol. 2, Page 417). We read however in 1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

This doctrine of saved by grace is one of the most misunderstood doctrines in the world today. Rev 20:12-13 speaking of judgement day informs us that all were judged, "according to their works".
Matt 16:27 informs us of Christ's declaration that, "the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Paul said in Phili. 2:12, "Work out your own salvation through fear and trembling."

We are saved by grace after we do all we can. The Jews were firm believers in the "works of the law" and so these great Apostles would often write and tell them that these works would not save them. We are all going to be saved by the grace of Christ, but be rewarded for our works done in the flesh. Chirst did provide three main works to show that it was by his grace that we should be saved–therefore, erased our boasting. These three WE could not have done for ourselves, and are thereby saved by HIS grace:

1) He created the earth upon which we live. (Coloss 1:16-17)
2) He attoned for the transgression of our first parents who had brought death into the world, thus bringing resurrection from the grave, or reuniting the body and spirit. (1 Cor. 15:22, James 2:26)
3) By giving us the everlasting gospel, "he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb. 5:9)

These things we could not do for ourselves, and therefore it was his grace that made it possible. However, as the last scripture I quoted in Heb 5:9 teaches, he was the author "unto all them that obey him". Notice the last three words....."that obey him". This does not read, all "that grace him" or all "that faith him" or all "that believe him". It is "obey". The word is obey, obey, obey. Obedience. That means it takes actions. And actions is another word for works.

Kathy, I don't know how much more clear this can be. I am not quoting out of the Book of Mormon or from any of the Mormon prophets. I am quoting from the Bible. My suggestion for you would be to be cautious of those that try to 'teach' you. You keep quoting Bill Keller. Who gave him the *authority* to tell the world what the Bible means? How does he justify these verses? It seems like he and you have a contridiction of verses if you interpret them the way you say you do. Even the great reformist Martin Luther couldn't square the circle. The fact of the matter is, that truth comes from God, not from man. If you claim, as Protestants do, that the Church of Rome fell, (as did the Church of England in her "Homily against Peril of Idolatry" in Book of Homilies), then Bill Keller and Luther can't have the whole truth, the everlasting gospel, because Christ taught that a live branch cannot grow off a dead tree (Matt 7:18). To claim to have the truth (as Protestatnts/Baptists do) the *authority*, ordinances, and principles of the gospel must be recognized and evident. It was Roger Williams, considered by many to be the founder of the Baptist Church, that stated on page 503 in Picturesque America, that there was,

"no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming, I am seeking."

Williams lived in the 1600s, starting his organization more than 100 years after Luther was excommunicated. If Williams recognized that "apostles", "authority", and "ordinances" were necessary.....HE WAS SEEKING THEM!....then what does that say about Bill Keller and others within the Protestant/Baptist faith. I ask you Kathy, what has changed regarding apostles, authority, and ordinances within your faith for the past 400 years? The answer is nothing. If Williams was still alive today and looking within your faith, he would say, "I am still seeking apostles, authority, and ordinances".

The good news Kathy is that about 150 years after Williams died, a boy was born that would soon be a latter day prophet.. God called him (Amos 3:7) and Christ re-established his church, with apostles, *authority*, and ordinances. If you'd like to know the truth, read through http://www.mormon.org and contact your local missionaries.

R

Oh.... I think my posts are going to be posted twice... sorry everyone. I did make a few corrections with my second postings though.

Cephas.... thanks for your response... I very much appreciate your insightfullness and knowledge ... I will respond back soon.

Dee Dee..... I do reflect back to my daughter at every opportunity.

Annie... the Bible I use is the New International Version Study Bible.

Dee Dee,

To answer your question,
We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ...that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

Isn't that what everyone should be doing?

R,
I don't think your friend is quit right. But almost… Here's one way that it's been explained to me... say Hitler, just before he died, repented ( was truly sorry for his sins) and accepted Christ as his Savior… he would be saved ( he would be forgiven )… but it's not just a matter of saying the words… it's what is in his heart and God will know. If someone gets saved and then goes on to commit a multitude of unspeakable sins then his faith couldn't have been real….. he did not truly accept Jesus as his Savior. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this very well but I am sure that you are judged by what is in your heart. That's why the 'requirement' to do good works is not a good doctrine because … the good works are not being done for the right reasons... your doing these good works because you want to receive a 'payment' in return – Salvation. It's kind of like when a child says " why doesn't God just 'program' us to obey and worship Him" He didn't 'program' us because He wants us to WANT to obey and love him out of His love for us. We should not be forced to do good works (in order to receive something) we should do the good works because we want to. That's one of the many problems with the Mormon doctrine on Salvation.

R,

Your response has me wondering if you read / understood my post.

Yes, I agree that faith and works go hand in hand. That is what James is saying. Faith IS dead without works because if the faith is not PRODUCING good works then it must not have been true saving faith in Jesus as their Savior.

There are two concepts of faith in these verses… the faith that is genuine ( faith in Jesus to save us ) and the faith that is only accepted knowledge of truth.

verse 19 of James chapter 2
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This verse states that even the devils have faith…. now according to your view if these devils now do good works ( of course these works won't be well meaning ) they will receive salvation… they have faith and good works. Do you see now the different meanings of the word faith in these scriptures? In verses 14-20,24,26 James is talking about faith in the sense of a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as Savior. This includes the verse you quoted…" (verse 24) that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." In this verse James is talking about the kind of faith that the 'devils' have ( without trust in Christ as Savior). If you choose to take these words at face value and not in the context in which they were written then what is your explanation for these verses by the Apostle Paul?

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

Galations 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

These verses SUPPORT the NIV Bible context of the verses in James. What other verses in the Bible support your interpretation?

Cephas,
Part 2
Ok… now your statement about the Catholic's belief that they believe in salvation by a mixture of faith, works and grace has left me with questions… I know about as much about the Catholic's doctrine as I do the Mormons but from what I do know I believe they are not on the right track either concerning alot of things. But the question I have now is why Bill Keller doesn't critisize the Catholics in the same way as the Mormons if they believe the same doctrine concerning salvation. I am going to present that question to him and hopefully he will answer me. I am very confidence that he has a justifiable explanation. When I get an answer I will pass it along if this blog is still up. He did certainly condemn the Popes words last year stating that a non-Catholic could not enter Heaven. ( and he made a public call for the Pope to step down )

I don't agree with the idea that Martin Luther 'invented' the 'concept' of salvation coming by faith alone. The official doctrine may not have existed before him but the concept was certainly there from the beginning when the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:28 …For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

and in Galatians 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

You stated that "Mormons don't believe in working our way to Heaven" but the scripture in the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to support that: For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23, pg. 100)…. it states that works are required!!

If you believe in following all of the scripture then what about the verses I quoted above?

Interpretations and context of the scriptures could make us go round and round forever it seems. There has to come a time for everyone when you just have to make a choice as to which belief is correct.

I choose to believe in the doctrine that says that we can ONLY be saved by the grace of God thru our faith in Christ and not by anything else. And in response to his saving grace I will HUMBLY do all the good works that I can. If after receiving the knowledge of his grace I do not produce good works then as James explained, my faith would not be real or it would be of a different kind… " a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as savior". ( the demons believe this much) ( NIV text note for verses 14-26 of James chapter 2 ) This Christian doctrine does not exclude the importance of good works, it is merely stating that good works are not to be included in our saving grace. They are to be separate. " For a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law. ( Romans 3:28)

Cephas, doesn't it make more sense and is more reverential to give God FULL credit for the gift of our salvation. Why do Mormons insist on receiving part of the credit thru good works? There is no way we can do ANYTHING to make ourselves righteous.

What is the harm in giving all the credit to God and also doing good works. Do Mormons think that if you don't include the requirement of good works in order to receive salvation that people would just not do any / or enouph good works? In other words that we must be forced to do good works? That God's love and the gift of grace that He has given us wouldn't be enouph to prompt us to show our gratitude thru good works? That doesn't say much for one's faith does it? If we are not prompted to do good works out of love and grace then the problem is not in lack of good works it is in our faith.

Hi Cephas,

Part 1
I'm glad you haven't abandoned our conversation yet and thank you for accepting my apology. And I want to start out by saying that I greatly admire your sincerity and honesty.

The issue of whether Mormonism is a cult is really not as important to me as the actual doctrinal issues so I'm just going to skip over that. Although I would like to say that the definition that you guoted does seem to me to define Mormonism mainly because of the more unusual beliefs but then again as a friend (who unfortunately is an atheist ) reminded me; there are unusual beliefs in every religion including Christianity.

As to the anti-Christ issue. It is clear in the Bible that there is an ongoing battle with God and Satan with the goal of Satan being the taking of as many souls as he can until God stops him. As the Bible states… God will ultimately win but until then Christians believe that we need to/should fight for those souls as well. We need to fight the anti-Christ. He is God's enemy and therefore our enemy. And that, without a doubt, is what I believe Bill Keller's mission is…to stand up against Satan. And believe me… he does not just come after the cultist religions… on a regular basis he critisizes our own Christian church leaders for not standing up to Satan's works for fear it will negatively affect their income / offerings. And I don't doubt for a minute that the anti-Mormon movement started the way that you described. No question that the desire for money and power are the reigning motivation of many – even among the self proclaimed 'religious'. Selfish desires are our greatest human weakness and Satan's "ace in the hole" so to speak.
Cephas, do you honestly believe that the people at the top in the Mormon religion are immune to this weakness? Is not Romney's bid for the white House an attempt to strengthen and empower the Mormon establishment?… of course you will say no to this but I find it very plausable and probable. I have read several things about the Mormons plans for getting a man in the White House but I won't repeat them now. And I understand how you wouldn't want to believe that a Mormon could result to sending death threats but your lack of belief is somewhat irrational because there are always 'bad apples' in every bunch. And the bad apples in this scenario are the ones who are aggressively trying obtain that goal of putting a Mormon in the most powerful position in the world. I'm going to include some words from Bill Keller's daily devotional – this one was written several days after he made his well known statement: " A vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan".

For the nearly 8 years I have been writing the Daily Devotional and the over 4 years of doing the TV program, some of the most viscous attacks on our technical infrastructure, on me personally, have come when I expose the lies of the satanic Mormon cult. This time was no different, except it was at an unprecedented level of ferociousness since I was taking on their greatest hope to capture the most powerful office in the world. We had our website and servers attacked relentlessly all weekend. I've received 12 death threats so far in addition to the scores of emails telling me that "someone will visit me when I least expect it." I refuse to live in fear and having dealt with these types of threats for the past 8 years, have learned how to use the common sense the Lord gave me and ultimately trust Him to watch over me as I serve Him each day.

I know Bill Keller's words are harsh, and you may still choose not to believe his claims but as I said earlier, I believe there are bad apples in every bunch.

Reading all of the responses from this little card. This country was founded on religion. Though we have taken prayer out of school, and our children are killing each other, you people care enough about your religion and beliefs to type your thoughts and feelings for the world to read. How about reflecting them back on your children so when they are your age, they can manage a better world to live in?

R,

Your response has me wondering if you read / understood my post.

Yes, I agree that faith and works go hand in hand. That is what James is saying. Faith IS dead without works but the point is that if the works don't come naturally ( not forced...done in order to help earn salvation) then the faith isn't GENUINE saving faith. THAT is the point of James' scriptures.

There are two concepts of faith in these verses... the faith that is genuine ( faith in Jesus to save us ) and the faith that is only accepted knowledge.

verse 19 of James chapter 2
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This verse states that even the devils have faith.... now according to your view if these devils now do good works ( of course these works won't be well meaning ) they will receive salvation... they have faith and good works. Do you see now the different meanings of the word faith in these scriptures? James is talking about faith in the sense of a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as Savior in verses 14-20,24,26. This includes the verse you quoted..." that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (verse 24) In this verse James is talking about the kind of faith that the 'devils' have ( without trust in Christ as Savior). If you choose to take these words at face value and not in the context in which they were written then what is your explanation for these verses by the Apostle Paul?

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

Galations 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

These verses SUPPORT the NIV Bible context of the verses in James. What other verses in the Bible support your context / doctrine?

I don't think your friend is quit right. But almost...What Bill Keller says is ... say Hitler, just before he died, repented ( was truly sorry for his sins) and accepted Christ as his Savior... he would be saved ( he would be forgiven )... but it's not just a matter of saying the words... it's what is in his heart and God will know. If someone gets saved and then goes on to commit a multitude of unspeakable sins then his faith couldn't have been real..... he did not truly accept Jesus as his Savior. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this very well but I am sure that you are judged by what is in your heart. That's why the 'requirement' to do good works is not a good doctrine because ... how does that show God your gratitude and love... your doing these good works because you want to receive something in return – Salvation. It's kind of like when a child says " why doesn't God just 'program' us to obey and worship Him" He didn't 'program' us because He wants us to WANT to obey and love him out of His love for us. We should not be forced to do good works (in order to receive something) we should do the good works because we want to. That's the problem with the Mormon doctrine on Salvation.

Hi Kathy and all,

I hope everyone is well.

Part IIa

I had hoped to get back to your Joseph Smith questions tonight but I guess there is more needed on what I like to call "Faith vs. Works or Both". That’s OK. But please understand that smarter folks than we (all of us) have been arguing about this very topic since before the Reformation began. So there is a better than fair chance that, at some point, we will have to agree to disagree. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean I won't talk about it. The Gospel is an exciting and vibrant thing to me. But you should know now that I’ve satisfied my mind on these issues years ago, and it will not change.

I’d like you encourage you to consider “R’s” comments, they are spot on.

Kathy one of the things that always bugged me about this discussion is the varying definitions of the word “work” or “works”. I say “varying” because in my experience Protestant Clergy and Lay Members of Protestant Churches often approach this argument using different definitions. Clergy normally equate Mormon Works with our belief in the need for certain physical ordnances (that’s why I referenced Baptism before) – in many cases, they site some of the same scriptures you did; often they believe our requirement for Baptism and other things like that to be abominations. Lay Members most often are under the mistaken impression that Mormons believe that by doing good works we are “racking up points” like “green stamps” that are necessary in order to “buy” our way into heaven. If that were the case, then I’m sure I’d have to wait for a double stamp day to get me in. But alas this is yet another falsehood perpetrated by "anti-mormon ministries", there is no big scoreboard in heaven. I’m still unclear on exactly which one of these positions you are coming from. But it really doesn’t matter.

To the untrained reader, this same semantic dichotomy appears in the New Testament. For centuries now, some folks have leaned more toward Paul’s definitions of Faith and Works as found in the scriptures you quoted as well as others found in the books of Timothy and Titus. While others folks have leaned more on James’ “be ye doers of the word not hearers only” as well as his lists of “works” followers of Christ were supposed to be doing. Various interpretations of these have abounded now for centuries. And some folks have found the contrast between the two perspectives so contradictory that they lost faith altogether. The key is realizing who the authors were and the environments in which they wrote. Paul, in his “prior” life, was deeply involved in the mixed, highly charged Roman/Jewish political and religious environment. One of the things that helped settle this for me was realizing that most often when Paul refers to works he is actually referring to the outward workings and ordinances of the form of Judaism being practice in his day. Additionally, when he uses the word faith, it is possible that he, at least on occasion, was indicating allegiance and not “Faith” in the form we are referring to here.

The scriptures you referenced in Romans and Galatians are good examples of this. Looked at in this larger context, what they are actually saying is that; “We have let go of the law and practices of the Jews since they have now been fulfilled in Christ and we have been saved/justified by our Faith in and allegiance to Jesus Christ and his “higher law”. So with that understanding we see that Paul wasn’t condemning “works” in general so much as he was condemning those who were clinging to the practices of Judaism in his day. Interestingly, with this understanding, Paul’s writings now come perfectly in line with James’ and other’s that seemingly require good works (or doing).

Please understand that some of what you’ve just read are my personal conclusions derived from my study and experience. However, Mormonism tends to see the Epistle of James in sharp contrast to Martin Luther’s Sola Fide (justification by faith alone). If I recall correctly, Martin Luther actually rejected the Epistle of James altogether and didn't see it as scripture or at least not inspired writing – something like that. My humble belief is that people generally misunderstand Paul’s semantics as well as his motivations and intentions.

Now for the dichotomies: Why is it that, within most Protestants faiths, the work of sin will send you to hell but good works won’t do anything to get you into heaven? – That just doesn’t make sense and "backsliding" doesn't account for it either.

Then there are also some like “R’s” friend who strongly believe that once a sinner confesses Christ to be their Savior, they are assured of entrance into the Protestant definition of Heaven.

Saved by Faith alone, is the real diabolical doctrine, tainted from its very inception by those who have used it to justify their atrocities. Nope, I’ll take the Mormon doctrine that is far more true to the entire New Testament and not just a few misunderstood or misused scriptures.

So Mormon’s believe in accomplishing physical ordinances, like baptism, because Christ has commanded that we do so – no other justification needed. But he also taught that they are necessary for salvation. We also strongly believe that as followers of Christ we are required to spend our lives devoted to good works, not because they will ensure that we get into heaven, but because Christ taught us that they are the fruit of our faith in him. We believe that as we become followers of Christ we accept a portion of his burden and in this way; we honor his atoning sacrifice by caring for and supporting the Sons and Daughters of God. So no one is saying that the Savior’s Grace alone isn’t sufficient to save – of course it is. What we are say is that the New Testament requires more of us than that.

So it’s a multiple choice question: Salvation comes by:
A) Faith
B) Grace
C) Works
D) All of the above.

That’s right “D” is the answer.

I hope this helps Kathy.

Hi Cephas,

I'm glad you haven't abandoned our conversation yet and thank you for accepting my apology. And I want to start out by saying that I greatly admire your sincerity and honesty.

The issue of whether Mormonism is a cult is really not as important to me as the actual doctrinal issues so I'm just going to skip over that. Although I would like to say that the definition that you guoted does seem to me to define Mormonism mainly because of the more unusual beliefs but then again as a friend (who unfortunately is an atheist ) reminded me; there are unusual beliefs in every religion including Christianity.

As to the anti-Christ issue. It is clear in the Bible that there is an ongoing battle with God and Satan with the goal of Satan being the taking of as many souls as he can until God stops him. As the Bible states... God will ultimately win but until then Christians believe that we need to/should fight for those souls as well. We need to fight the anti-Christ. He is God's enemy and therefore our enemy. And that, without a doubt, is what I believe Bill Keller's mission is...to stand up against Satan. And believe me... he does not just come after the cultist religions... on a regular basis he critisizes our own Christian church leaders for not standing up to Satan's works for fear it will negatively affect their income / offerings. And I don't doubt for a minute that the anti-Mormon movement started the way that you described. No question that the desire for money and power are the reigning motivation of many – even among the self proclaimed 'religious'. Selfish desires are our greatest human weakness and Satan's "ace in the hole" so to speak.
Cephas, do you honestly believe that the people at the top in the Mormon religion are immune to this weakness? Is not Romney's bid for the white House an attempt to strengthen and empower the Mormon establishment?... of course you will say no to this but I find it very plausable and probable. I have read several things about the Mormons plans for getting a man in the White House but I won't repeat them now. And I understand how you wouldn't want to believe that a Mormon could result to sending death threats but your lack of belief is somewhat irrational because there are always 'bad apples' in every bunch. And the bad apples in this scenario are the ones who are aggressively trying obtain that goal of putting a Mormon in the most powerful position in the world. I'm going to include some words from Bill Keller's daily devotional – this one was written several days after he made his well known statement: " A vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan".

For the nearly 8 years I have been writing the Daily Devotional and the over 4 years of doing the TV program, some of the most viscous attacks on our technical infrastructure, on me personally, have come when I expose the lies of the satanic Mormon cult. This time was no different, except it was at an unprecedented level of ferociousness since I was taking on their greatest hope to capture the most powerful office in the world. We had our website and servers attacked relentlessly all weekend. I've received 12 death threats so far in addition to the scores of emails telling me that "someone will visit me when I least expect it." I refuse to live in fear and having dealt with these types of threats for the past 8 years, have learned how to use the common sense the Lord gave me and ultimately trust Him to watch over me as I serve Him each day.

I know Bill Keller's words are harsh, and you may still choose not to believe his claims but as I said earlier, I believe there are bad apples in every bunch.

And speaking of bad apples, your wife's grandfathers Baptist Minister definitely fits that description... really there are no words to describe what he did. I'm sure that he was a big motivator in causing your wife's relatives to switch to Mormonism. His is a perfect example of the kind of poison and damage that selfish human desires produce.

Ok... now your statement about the Catholic's belief that they believe in salvation by a mixture of faith, works and grace has got my feathers a little bit ruffled... I know about as much about the Catholic's doctrine as I do the Mormons but from what I do know I believe they are not on the right track either concerning alot of things. But the question I have now is why Bill Keller doesn't critisize the Catholics in the same way as the Mormons if they believe the same doctrine concerning salvation. I am going to present that question to him and hopefully he will answer me. I am very confidence that he has a justifiable explanation. When I get an answer I will pass it along if this blog is still up. He did certainly condemn the Popes words last year stating that a non-Catholic could not enter Heaven. ( and he made a public call for the Pope to step down )

I don't agree with the idea that Martin Luther 'invented' the 'concept' of salvation coming by faith alone. The official doctrine may not have existed before him but the concept was certainly there from the beginning when the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:28 ...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

and in Galatians 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

You stated that "Mormons don't believe in working our way to Heaven" but the scripture in the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to support that: For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23, pg. 100).... it states that works are required!!

If you believe in following all of the scripture then what about the verses I quoted above?

Interpretations and context of the scriptures could make us go round and round forever it seems. There has to come a time for everyone when you just have to make a choice as to which belief is correct.

I choose to believe in the doctrine that says that we can ONLY be saved by the grace of God thru our faith in Christ and not by anything else. And in response to his saving grace I will HUMBLY do all the good works that I can. If after receiving the knowledge of his grace I do not produce good works then as James explained, my faith would not be real or it would be of a different kind... " a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as savior". ( the demons believe this much) ( NIV text note for verses 14-26 of James chapter 2 ) This Christian doctrine does not exclude the importance of good works, it is merely stating that good works are not to be included in our saving grace. They are to be separate. " For a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law. ( Romans 3:28)

Cephas, doesn't it make more sense and is more reverential to give God FULL credit for the gift of our salvation. Why do Mormons insist on receiving part of the credit thru good works? There is no way we can do ANYTHING to make ourselves righteous.

What is the harm in giving all the credit to God and also doing good works. Do Mormons think that if you don't include the requirement of good works in order to receive salvation that people would just not do any / or enouph good works? In other words that we must be forced to do good works? That God's love and the gift of grace that He has given us wouldn't be enouph to prompt us to show our gratitude thru good works? That doesn't say much for one's faith does it? If we are not prompted to do good works out of love and grace then the problem is not in lack of good works it is in our faith.

Kathy of Sarasota

What Bible are you reading from? I personally use the King James Version not one that has been changed by modern man...and his definitions which I have been told by my Evangelical friends tend to water down the real meaning.

Kathy–

From your comments it seems to me that I left you with the impression that works is all it takes. The scriptures clearly state that faith and works go hand in hand. There is no way to confuse "faith without works is dead". Faith is a must. Works (obedience) is must. There is no altering/confusing/spinning that statement. Faith alone is dead.

My best friend is a born-again and we've had this discussion many times. He insists that if you say you believe in Christ then you are automatically saved. That after that point of saying that you accept Christ, there is nothing you could to jeopordize your salvation....that you will go to heaven. He says that you could rape and kill a million people, but if previous to doing all of that you said you believed in Christ, then you would still go to heaven. How is that possible? I can't find any scriptures that supports that claim.

Going back to James.....the question is rhetorically posed in verse 14. It is then answered in verses 15 and 16 with an example of how faith is nothing if we don't take care of our fellow sister or brother that is naked or hungry. It uses Abraham as an example in later verses showing that he exercised his faith and obeyed. The immediate verse after says "that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." I don't know how much more clear it can be.

I could go on and on, but I think that Cephas makes other great comments and that they suffice.

R,

Works are the result / proof of a GENUINE, SAVING faith... that is what these verses are implying.

Verse 14 ... " though a man SAY he have faith, and have not works.." It is implied that this faith is not genuine because if it were, good works would FOLLOW. This verse sets up the CONTEXT for the rest of the verses. The NIV Bible explains...
In verses 14-20,24,26 the word faith is not used in the sense of genuine, saving faith. Rather, it is demonic (v 19), useless (v 20) and dead (v 26).

Verse 17... " Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Of course faith without works is dead because it is no better than the faith that the demons have ( verse 19). Note that Faith is PRIMARY and works follow in response to the faith. The scripture from the Book of Mormon implies that WORKS MUST COME FIRST and then Grace is received. This CONTRADICTS the scriptures in the Bible.

Verse 21 standing alone would seem to support your claims but in the context that was set up with the beginning verse (14) and ESPECIALLY the following 23rd verse CLEARLY states that we are justified by FAITH..... " Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness".

Other verses that support justification by faith alone....

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

Galations 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Part II
Also, I must point out Kathy that you used that term again; “Traditional Christian” The term “traditional” is only a matter of perspective and by itself lends no credence to the subject. Please allow me to remind you that all Protestant Faiths trace their doctrine no further back than the 16th or 17th Century. Prior to that, Christian doctrine was under the control of the Catholic Church which, by the way, believes in salvation by a mixture of faith, works and grace. Martin Luther invented the concept of salvation coming by faith alone (Sola Fide, is the Latin term I believe). It didn’t exist before that – history indicates that it was his invention. The Faith vs. Works argument is circular in nature. For the very act of having Faith is a “work”. Mormons do not believe in “working our way to Heaven”. Here again, you’ve been led astray as to what we believe. We believe in following scripture, not just some of it. There have already been some excellent scriptures quoted by both sides of the discussion. So I will just say this. More than once Christ commanded us to obey him (If ye love me KEEP my commandments). Obedience is a work by the way. He also commanded us to do quite a number of things; Like Baptism for instance – he said we couldn’t get into Heaven without it. He didn’t say it was just a sign of faith before the body of Christ, he said it had to be done. In Luke 17 he also said that he that does his duty, but just his duty is an “unprofitable servant”. In short, in order for Faith to work, it depends on two main ingredients: Obedience and Grace. We must do our best to work obediently to accomplish the things the Lord has asked us to do, like baptism, among many others. The most important ingredient however is the Lord’s Grace, no matter how hard we try, our works will not get us through Heaven’s door, we will always be found wanting and only His Grace and Intercession will save us. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our “Salvation”. Mormons believe that the doorway to salvation is through: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by immersion, the Gift of the Holy Spirit, followed by hefty doses of enduring obedience and overwhelming measures of the Lord’s Grace when it’s all over. In other words “Saved by Grace, AFTER all we can do”. Those teaching that salvation comes only by confessing Faith in Christ are guilty of cheating the souls of their flocks just like the Priests in the middle ages were guilty of selling "tickets to salvation". They are only putting out part of the story. You quoted Eph 2:8-9 and well you should have but verse 10 says that we were created…unto good works and we should walk in them. Since Christ commanded us to do some very specific “good works” in this life, I don’t think Paul was just telling us we just had to be nice to each other.

In reference to your question about: “going to Hell if you don’t believe Joseph Smith”. I said before that we didn’t believe we had “exclusive” rights to the path to “Heaven” and I meant it. It may surprise you to learn this but we don’t believe you’re going to Hell just because you not a Mormon and we don’t believe your preacher is a hireling of Satan either. But Protestants certainly believe that we’re going to Hell if we don’t share their 16, 17 and 18th century views – don’t they. The Mormon definition of Salvation is a little more complicated that the Protestant Heaven & Hell scenario – again the LDS view is a little more rooted in scripture. I’ll urge you to study Christ’s comments about “Many Mansions in my Father’s Kingdom”, Paul’s references to multiple degrees of glory (one of the sun and one of the moon etc) and the 3rd Heaven Paul speaks of in 2Cor 12:2(KJV). Then seriously ask a Mormon Missionary to explain it to you, they have flip charts and everything to walk you right through it. There is a Hell and it is a seriously awful place, Mormons normally refer to it as "Outer Darkness" where there will be weeping, wailing and nashing of teeth. But, and of course I'm not the Judge of this, but I'd bet you're not headed there.

Hi Kathy from Sarasota,

I've not yet abandoned our conversation. Now that the holidays are over and I've returned to work, I don't have the spare time I did.

I'd like to thank "Yanqui" and "R" for joining our conversation and you for the tone that has been maintained as well as the apology – thanks.

Yes, I'm familiar with Billy Graham, I grew up less than 20 miles from his Mansion, Headquarters and Training Center. The HQ and Training Center are easy to spot, but I used to be able to point out his home in the Mountains near Black Mountain NC. My Sister-in-Law's Sister was his personal secretary, up until she retired – many years ago now. I have a great deal of respect for him. I am less familiar with his sons work.

But respecting Billy doesn't mean I think he is right. Princeton and Wikipedia define a CULT as: a term designating a cohesive group of people devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be outside the mainstream and an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices. The term has been high jacked by evangelicals and the like to mean something it doesn't. So if you want to call Mormonism a cult – go right a head I won't be offended. But with these definitions you might be. A little humor there.

At any rate, I do have to make a correction to something I said earlier, the "MM" website(s) doesn't actually ask you outright for donations, they are just trying to get you to buy their wares that really amount to little more than Religious Pornography – to coin a phrase.

You mentioned the Anti-Christ. Theologically, Mormons do not deny that an Anti-Christ may be coming or is perhaps present with us. We just think that focusing on such things detracts us from focusing our lives on Christ, so you don't hear us speaking of him too very much. As a matter of CUSTOM (note I didn't say doctrine) we believe that there are different types of Anti-Christ that we personally need to be more mindful of. Some are people; those who teach false doctrine, tare us down or destroy our self respect or encourage us to deny the Christ, some are things: addiction, pornography, greed, etc. You get the idea.

Kathy, I'll do my best to answer your questions at least briefly, my last post was rejected 3 or 4 times – I think because it was too long. Motivation: Kathy, I grew up in multiple Bible belt towns, in the hotbed of anti-mormon fervor in the 70’s and 80’s. In other words I’ve heard it all before. It all comes back around to Money and Power base. When any part of your local preacher’s living is based on the money he gets from you. He is going to view anyone that upsets that apple cart as a threat. The LDS Church’s clergy is 95% un-paid. There are 15 leaders who are technically on the payroll, but as I understand it, even for them, if they are independently wealthy before they are “called” to those positions they do not draw a salary either but the Church will pay their expenses. Other leaders also get some expenses repaid, but they receive no salary from the congregation nor the Church. This money comes from Tithes paid privately by members (not a single collection plate anywhere) Back in the 1800’s and early 1900’s Mormon Missionaries would arrive in an area and entire congregations would leave their old Churches and join the LDS Church, so Anti-Mormon Ministries were born and have become an industry unto themselves. I’ve listened to the “Bible Answer Man” himself say “I don’t really have anything against most Mormon Bishop’s, they are good men, but every one of them would steal your entire congregation if he could”. To them it was a matter of professional courtesy not to “steal” from each other – they said as much. I asked myself at the time – are they really concerned about the souls in their congregation – over and over again the answer was, nope it was a business, a compassionate one at times, but a business just the same. I can’t tell you the number of times I heard preachers in church and in revivals say things like: “If you pay my hotel bill tonight I’ll come back tomorrow”. My wife’s grandfather’s Baptist Minister came to him on his death bed and told him that if he didn’t donate to the baptism font fund that he would die and go to hell – I kid you not, on his death bed in front of my wife’s Grandmother – they later became Mormons. The LDS Church simply isn’t run that way. The Lord’s church shouldn’t be.

As for Pastor Bill Keller’s death threats from Mormons, sorry don’t believe it. Not happening from active, faithful members and certainly not from Church Leaders. They are either coming from some Lune or he’s making them up. If they were real, the FBI wouldn’t wait for him to ask them to get involved.

End part I

Kathy from Sarasota–

I am a mormon and the scripture you quoted about grace and faith (Eph. 2:8-9) is true. At the same time, we learn in the Bible that faith-without works-is dead...and James 2:14-26 support the Book of Mormon scripture that you quoted in 2 Nephi 25:23. Plain and simple as stated in the Bible, faith cannot suffice without works, and works cannot survive without faith. The question is posed in verse 14, if a man have not works "can faith save him?". The answer is given crystal clear in the ensuing verses.

James 2:14-26 (I personally like verses 22 and 26)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The scripture in Eph meshes nicely with James. The sacrifice of the Savior and the grace of God allow us to even have the opportunity to be saved. Without it we would all be lost. It allows us the opportunity to have faith in Him. Without the sacrifice, faith could not exist. Eph simply supports James by saying that works in and of itself will not save men.

Eph 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Found this also in the Book of Mormom..... http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
2 Nephi 5: 21

And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; 3 Nephi 2:15

Someone who believes the above is NOT someone I personally want sitting in a powerful government position declaring what the destiny of others should be. Mind you, that this election isn't about a candidate's religion for me, but about integrity. I would not someone who believes the above to run the white house, but someone who is for the people....all people, regardless of the color of their skin or backgrounds.

We need someone who is willing to represent us all. We need someone with true integrity. I'm voting for change. It's time out for foolishness. We should be sick and tired of the corruption and lies. We have voted unwanted candidates in office in the past because of a lack of competent, forthright candidates. 2008's election has a varied group of competent individuals. We as a people need to stop complaining and make a difference by voting. Use your pointed finger to exercise your voting power!!!

as a democratic mormon from south carolina, i can easily explain that our church does not support any one particular candidate, even if he/she may be a member of our church.
i'm voting for OBAMA !!
but to defend my belief that i have in my church, i am still floored that some ignorant or uneducated people dispute on whether we are Christians or not.

the name of our church is :
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints

Rev. Al Sharpton once declared that Mitt Romney does not believe in the same Jesus Christ as he does. Hate to break it to you Al, but there is only one Jesus Christ, and He is the one whose name our Church bears. So is your question answered? Of course we are Christians.

As to our church being a cult... I would say these select FEW are trying to create problems through their hate/misunderstandings about our church.
If you'rve ever been to one of our churchs, you'd notice that the doors are always open for anyone who wants to visit, you don't have to be a member (someone who has been baptised) to participate in our worship (talks, prayers, hymns, scripture study), and if you don't agree with anything our church teaches that's up to you. God doesn't take away a man's agency to follow his own conscience, why would our church do that to other people?

Get the facts straight people. Learning about our church from your neighborhood preacher probably isn't the most accurate way to learn the truth.
Did you learn how to walk from hearing others talk about it, or did you actually get up on your feet and do it for yourself?

The Book of Mormon offers an account of people who lived on the American continent two thousand years ago. There were various groups and some emphasis is given the color of the skin of each group. However, all groups, regardless of skin color, were at times faithful and prosperous and at other times unfaithful and eventually not prosperous. In describing the dark skinned people, called the Lamanites, the Book of Mormon reads, " . . . they were exceedingly valiant for courage, and also for strength and activity; but behold, this was not all–they were men who were true at all times in whatsoever thing they were entrusted. Yea, they were men of truth and soberness, for they had been taught to keep the commandments of God . . . (Alma 53:20-21)." In terms of racial intolerance, the Book of Mormon prophet, Jacob, not only do not teach such intolerance but even cautioned their people against it specifically. Jacob said, referring to the Lamanites, "Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins (Jacob 3:9)."

No approved teaching of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint has ever condoned racial intolerance, or persecution of people for any other reason. It did, however, refrain from giving the priesthood of God to blacks, as per a revelation from God. Many blacks were baptized into the church and waited for the day when every worthy man could hold the priesthood. President Spencer W. Kimball in 1978 declared that, " . . . the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood . . . ." Since then, all men who are worthy are ordained to the priesthood.

Our current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, has encouraged Latter-Day Saints every where to be more open about our beliefs. I hope this clears up some of the confusion. In 29 years of church attendance, I can say, as I hope all of my religious counterparts can, that my leaders and fellow worshipers are taught tolerance and humility before God. Good luck to everyone in the primaries and may we put the most important things first in our lives regardless of whom we support for president.

I agree with Mr. Will Holley that kind of bigotry should be condemned. But more important I find it alarming that Mr. Will Holley did reassure potential voters that the damaging statements are also false. With the background of the State of Utah where the Mormon religion is based having to disavow polygamy in order to become a State,
I would like to know more about Mr. Romney's religion.

Seems to be in line with the "white and delightsome" principle supported by Mormons (although they've backed off from the racist history in recent years). If the quote is correct, I'd rather see Mormon's try to explain the quote than to cry "unfair".

This entire debate is HILARIOUS!! Who needs late night comedy when we have RELIGION?!?

Joseph Smith said when he was a very young boy, he was told that his name would be known for good and evil among ALL NATIONS, KINDREDS, AND PEOPLE. It is intresting that someone would dare make that claim but yet here you see it, right here on this comment board. This story has one of the largest strings of comments on this whole site! Both sides are represented very well. If God exists then so does Satan, right? If The LDS Church is true wouldn't make sense that there would be A LOT of very passionate people against it? If you want to know if the Book of Mormon is true as well as know the Bible to be true (as I know both to be the word of God) read them yourself and ask God if it is true. Don't ask anyone on this site or any other site to TELL you what it true or not, if there is a God (and I know there is one) he will tell you what is truth.

Thanks everyone for proving the prophecy about Joseph Smith to be true. It helps my faith to see so many for and against Joseph. I am thankful that God has told me through the Holy Ghost that he was a prophet (not a perfect person, but a prophet – there is a difference) and that Jesus Christ is my Savior and NOT someone leaving comments they really know nothing about or experienced themselves. That is what makes "Mormonism" different. If you want to know it is true or a "bunch of tales" (as people have said) you can as God because he loves everyone EQUALLY (God does not play favorites – He loves everyone of every religion and everyone who does not have religion) and He will tell you.

Thank you all!

It was a nice card but the white part might be mistranslated by a non mormon

To Thena – you asked if that was an accurate quote, about a fair and white virgin in 1st Nephi.

I was raised Mormon, and yes that's an accurate quote. The Mormon church's history with race is not good, even though Joseph Smith was an Abolitionist. There are passages in the Book of Mormon that inveigh dark skinned people (whom the early Mormons referred to as possessing "the Mark of Cain") to study the scriptures and cleave to the LDS gospel so that they may become "white and delightsome".

This is not to say that Romney is a racist – but you have to keep your eyes open to Mormon history. It is a history that the official church tries to run from or revise at every opportunity and I think you can see why.

Kathy, I gotta ask this, because it flies in the face of reason: Why–why in the world–would we lie about what we believe? How does that make any kind of sense? If we would like someone to eventually believe what we believe–and that's the whole point of the missionaries–how would lying about what we believe stand up to that? How can you believe that someone who hates the Mormon church would be the best source of information on it?

My salvation is not dependent on my husband. My salvation is dependent on my acceptance of the Savior's gift of sacrifice on my behalf in payment for my sins. If my husband doesn't measure up to that same requirement, he misses out. What is said about that is that for the full measure of paradise, we need each other; that would make his eternal happiness as dependent on me as mine is on him. But only because the joy of family life here is also available eternally, and I'd rather choose my companion here–as I did–and work with him together to build an eternal family than to risk not having him. I'll move on to eternity without him if his choices render him unfit for God's kingdom and mine render me fit–but neither of us is fit without the Savior's gift.

As a female in the Church, I have access to all the gifts and knowledge I need to fill the service I'm in. I speak in Church, I teach in Church, I serve in leadership positions, I work with men, women, and children, teens, adults, babies. Believe me, if I felt that the men in the Church were keeping me from being all I could be, I'd have had no part in it from the very beginning. I don't believe that's God's plan for his daughters.

Additionally, when Ivan and Katrina struck the Gulf Coast, the Church did not react. It acted pro-actively, and had boxcars loaded and enroute so that as soon as the roads were passible we were able to go to the railyards and gather materials to assist in the recovery effort. The Church beat both FEMA and the Red Cross to the site.

Food Storage–I was always taught that the purpose of Food storage was to guard against emergency–such as hurricanes, when access to fresh food may be impaired. Food supplies that need no refrigeration and little preparation came in handy. It has come in handy for many families as well who have faced sudden unemployment. Having food storage supplies enabled them to rebuild lives and livelihoods without resorting to debt at a time when they least needed debt. When our leaders talk about food storage, "end of the world" scenarios are never a part of the discussion. It's always about general emergencies. We're also encouraged to guard against things that can exacerbate emergencies, like debt and self-inflicted bad health. What a horrible bunch of stuff to teach–sound economic and medical principles.

When will people realize that all religions are by nature bigoted and exclusionary? The "my god is better than your god" mantra has caused more killing, rape, pillaging and misery than any other human enterprise.

Mormonism is an extraordinarily racist and sexist religion.

That much is true.

Who cares what their religion is, but not fixing the the Warren Jeff's problem in Utah looks funny to voters. Utah has a lot of welfare from the many wifes and children and we as tax payers foot the bill. Please sign me up for the free benefits as I pay my bills like so many people do. He slipped through this whole process without one person confronting him on this issue. The other issues will still be here 4 years from now and we will be no better off---–sad, but true.

Huckabilly was not even a blip on the radar until the illegal, bigoted, anti-mormon push polls started.

Huck used anti-catholic bigotry to attack and tear down sen. Brownback.

Huck the bigot...it goes right along with his hole campaign of innuendo, lies and bigotry.

Huck is the most corrupt GOP candidate..almost as corrupt as the other politician from Arkansas...Hillary.

Huck is not presidential.

Huck sucks.

Fascinatingly dirty piece of work. Can you imagine how much this little stunt cost? Is it to discredit Romney? To start rumors on other candidates involvement? It's so twisted!

Boy, this dirty trick has stench of Karl Rove all over it. Or someone like him.

I'd bet on Fred Thompson or Giuliani and doubt Huckabee has got the funds, anyway. The Republican establishment isn't too thrilled with either Romney or Huckabee. Maybe they're involved?

Shouldn't be difficult for journalists to track this down. Right?

M = Great post mate, couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks...

Wow~! I'm pretty amazed at how many have drunk the Kool Aid. May I ask, what flavor? All religions are nonsensical – that is, in fact, the definition of religion. The elephant in the room is that whatever the religion – IT HAS NO PLACE IN AN ELECTION! What the candidate will do about the economy, healthcare, the war, the deficit, the declining middle class and the abuse of the Constitution is what should matter to everyone. Get a grip and lets discuss ISSUES! Every election has dirty tricks. I, for one, still don't believe Bush ever won a presidential election. So there.

Andrew:

I apopreciate your tolerance of all religion's but this country was founded on a set of values, not on God or under god or around god or any other manner of god.

"(its a nation under God, of course)" It is not a "nation under god". Nations are human constructs. God is never, ever mentioned in the constitution or pre-amble.

You say that the oath can be taken on any "religious" text, although admirably open minded, that is completely wrong. Nowhere in the constitution does it specify taken the oath on any text, religious or otherwise, so you could do no text, or you could take an oath on a copy of "Democracy for Dummies"

The hypocracy and irony of it all is that Mitt explicitly made his faith part of the campaign. Rightfully, his religion should have nothing to do with this campaign, but he wants it both ways. He makes statements like no freedom without religion, and no religion without freedom, asserting religion into a discussing where it does not belong. Romney and the religious right degenerated this campaign into this stuff. Maybe if he had the courage of Kennedy, he could complain with some sort of authority, but Mitt got exactly what Mitt wanted.

This issue perfectly illustrates why church should be an individual issue of personal faith and belief and the state should be independent of religion and tolerant of all. By dragging god into politics we open a political debate over which beliefs are correct, worthy or acceptable. We get political candidates trying to to boast about their faith versus anothers or making elections a referendum on god. There is a good reason that religious tolerance and a separation of church and state were hallowed principles of the founders of the United States. They didn't say GOD should be separate from the state (its a nation under God, of course) they just said the CHURCH or brand of faith should be separated from the state.

If we don't follow this, we digress to comments like that from "Steve Blaine" abover saying that "Mormonism is not Christian, no mater what kind of spin any of you put on it" (if they believe and follow the teachings of Christ, they ARE by DEFINITION christian Mr. Blaine, that's a fact and not an opinion. And "SPIN" is a political term, not a fair way to describe a spiritual belief - even one you are intolerant and ignorant about. Mr Blaine refers to "My Bible" which he seems to think means it is THE bible and the only religious text of value. And then he goes for the most empty "conclusion" that "because these doctrines are contrary to traditional Christian belief (again, traditional = what he thinks = only correct and worthy view) and says "people who identify themselves as Christian will not vote for a Mormon". Mr Blaine does that mean that unless someone's faith makes them as intolerant and self-righteous as you are they are not "real Christians". Do me a favor and reconcile the words of Jesus with this kind of intolerance and feel free to use YOUR BIBLE to do so.

And "for the record" you are completely wrong that "people are sworn into office by "the Bible because that Book is the religious standard in America". People are sworn into office by their solemn personal OATH and AFFIRMATION and a bible or any other religious text is the personal choice of the one making the oath. If you missed it, this issue was freshly visited last year when Rep. Keith Ellison, a practicing Muslim, elected to take his oath of office for Congress last year on a Koran once owned by Thomas Jefferson. It is unbeliveably poignant that the author of our constitution who enshrined a reverence for the one true God as separate from the petty fights between various churches and beliefs was himself tolerant enough to own and learn from a religious text of another culture. How powerful this made Ellison's choice to swear his allegiance to the CONSTITUTION of the US (not ANY religious belief) and to also asked for divine help by saying "so help me God" in accordance with his PERSONAL private faith. And how clearly it also showed the intolerance those who attacked him for his faith not being the "right one" or thinking he didn't use the "right book".

These Republicans would sell out their own Mothers! I am completely without shock.

By the way, (Democratic) Senator Harry Reid is a Mormon. He and I disagree on a lot of things. But he is an American with the right to run for office and he was elected by people with the right to elect him. The LDS Church is not telling him what to do. If the LDS Church is telling Reid what to do, then it would also have to be telling (Republican) Senator Orrin Hatch what to do. How could that even be possible?

Un-Freaking-believable! Not just the card, but some of the comments it has inspired. Okay, I'm LDS–a Mormon, if you please. So if you don't believe any of what I say here, you wouldn't believe me or any other Mormon anyway on any topic, including that which I use as my trade, which is technology. It's interesting that if you're a Mormon-basher, you wouldn't hire me to set up your home network if you knew I was a Mormon. Now would you? So let's address a few things. The offensiveness of the card was in the insinuation that the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is propagating racism, as evidenced by the boldness of the font used in the words "fair and white." Throughout the Old Testament, White always meant pure. REad it, it's pretty interesting. Mitt would use a Bible–because, guess what–WE READ THE BIBLE!!!! Many of your Mormon acquaintances are at least as familiar with both halves of it as you are; we devote a year to the study of the Old Testament in our Sunday services; the following year, we devote a year to the study of the New Testament. Interesting, isn't it? It's one of our Articles of Faith. (hmmmm....intersting phrase–google THAT!) Joseph Smith was shot in the back. What a brave act! Jumping from jail? No, as a matter of fact, the velocity of the shots propelled him out of the window. Weird underwear? I think thongs and waterbras are weird. Some people carry Rosary beads to help them remember covenants, we wear clothing items that do the same thing. If it works, what's the big deal? As for the "racist till 1978" issue, I didn't like that part when I was learning about the Church. And there's no way to explain it unless and until you're ready to really listen. So I won't bother and you'll attack that stand as well.

It's also important to note that Mormons don't believe that every Mormon will get to the highest level of favor with God. Mormons who don't live as they know they should just won't. And Baptists (and Methodists, and Pentecostals, etc.) who DO live as they know they should will stand in much better favor than a disobedient Mormon–and by disobedient, I mean disobedient to the word of God.

Mine is the only Church that invites its members to put the leadership to the test of truth–let God tell you what's true, don't take our word for it. Every other church I visited would not let that happen; it was a case of, "If the preacher says it, it must be true." There is room in the truth for scrutiny. We're open to yours.

I can't believe thjere are conservatives out there blaming the Clintons for this. Get over it, already! The only thing worse than unreasonable paranoia is outdated, unreasonable paranoia.
This has Huckabee all over it. He's a bigger phony than Romney. Now that's saying a lot! Witness his antic this week in pulling a mean spirited attack ad on Romney but then showing it to the press just to show what a decent guy he really is. What a phony!!!

I wouldn't put it past Romney to have put this out himself, so he can claim he didn't.

Any American who is capable of voting should also be able to investigate both the candidates and the Church (if they so desire) for themselves

The problem is they don't!

As far as I can tell, this is absolutely part of american politics in the Karl Rove era. You guys really need to have a look from the outside, take a trip to France or something.

It's perfectly OK for a draft dodging coward to swift boat a person who volunteered to fight for his country, but now the rethuglicans are whining and crying about this? Please!
HYPOCRITES!

Has Huckabee hired Rove?

Kathy,

My replies to your comment keep getting rejected by the moderator so I'll be brief:

I hope you're still monitoring this blog. I'm sure CNN won't let this discussion go on too much longer. But I had to get back with you on this. I worried about it and lay awake for some time concerned for you.

First let me say that I very much appreciated the tone of your post. But I must take you to task on one point. You said that the link you provided would take me to information that “Moromons…won't tell you (and will often lie about)”. I’ve been a member of this Church for 25 years and have never any occasion witnessed members or leaders who have lied about the Gospel. To suggest such a thing to a Mormon is one of the highest insults of which I am aware. Of course there are some who do err on occasion but never intentionally. So I respectfully must ask you to recant that statement. But I don’t blame you, I blame those who have led you to this train of thought.

Now to what worries me most. The web link you provided contains some of the most disgusting tripe I have seen for some time. The fact that there are still folks out there regurgitating these old and worn out arguments amazes me. But rather than me telling you this, let me let them expose there own dubious nature for you.

As you know on the link you provided presents a lengthy list of items Mormons supposedly won’t tell you. The first one on the list says this: “MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan.”

The website is owned and operated by: mmoutreachinc.com. On their home website under their “Who are we Statements of Belief” link you’ll find the following quote; “We believe if you have the right Jesus Christ, you are right for all eternity. But if you have the wrong Jesus Christ then you are wrong for all eternity”.

These two statements are identical in nature and purpose. On the one hand they claim that Mormon’s believe that they hold a monopoly on the way to heaven because every other Church is wrong. Then they themselves claim to know the only true way to heaven because all other perspectives are wrong. Do you see how dubious this is? It is a clear double standard, one of a great many which are hurled at the LDS Church everyday by such people. They can’t have it both ways. This strikes to the heart of the motives behind the website.

Kathy this site and a large percentage of the other anti-mormon websites utilize a technique called “yellow journalism” in order to incite you to fear and anger toward Mormons. Then, like this site, they politely encourage you to donate and help shield the world from the “Mormon scourge”. It would be laughable if intelligent people such as you didn’t fall for it so often.

But just simply looking at the horrid “Things Mormons Won’t Tell You” list is enough to turn ones stomach. The entire list is a travesty. I’ll try to capture it in percentages: 90% of the list is out right lies, 5% of the list is dishonest misrepresentation of doctrine and 5% of the list misrepresentation of quotes from previous Mormon leaders that isn’t doctrine.

Lastly, I wish we had more time to do justice to your great scripture references. But look at: Romans 8:17. Mathew 3:17 and Mark 14:34-35. How can we be Joint Heirs with Christ if Christ and God (Heavenly Father as we call him) are one and the same personage? In Matthew, those present witnessed evidence of all three personages (God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit), In the Garden, Christ wasn’t praying to himself and it wasn’t "setting an example” since no one was present or even a wake to here the prayer. It was a private moment between him and his Father. In fact, considering the subsequent events, it is highly probable that he didn’t even tell the Apostles what he actually prayed until after his resurrection.

Kathy, it is fine to have scriptural and doctrinal differences with Mormons, but don’t fall into the trap of believing any of the “anti-mormon” ministry websites. Form your own opinions based on what you learn yourself. Set down with actual missionaries and you’ll see, you may not agree with them, but they will NEVER LIE to you, Nothing could be further from the truth.

It no differant than the republican from GW Bush on have done to the democrats for years I see no reson to get upset let them eat there own . Wait until the election
and watch the 'repuiblican slime machine got to work on Obama or whoever the democrats select .

Someone goes after Mitt because of his religion? Too bad. It will be fun watching the Republicans try to 'out Holy' each other to get the 'Christian' vote....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

Republicans eat their own!

To Kathy from Sarasota:

I come to you impart with humbleness, but also mingled with boldness of spirit that I have a "testimony" of Christ that "He" is the only begoten Son of our loving and merciful Heavenly Father. He is my Saviour and Redeemer. He is the Truth, the Way, the Light, and the Life of the World. He is my "Judge." He is the "Creator" of the world (John 1:1-3). What more can I say? But let us have peace and love of Christ –for you and I and the Mormons both believe on the same Christ. Let charity garnish our thoughts, for without "Chairty," according to Paul, we become as "sounding brass, or a tinckling cymbal," for "Charity never faileth, and is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil." Again Paul said, "And now abideth faith, hope,charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." I Love You my sister in Christ "Kathy of Sarasota," I don't know you in person, but through the spirit in Christ–I Know you. Peace I live with you.

Jessie of West Virginia

To Kathy from Sarasota:

There is nothing "tragic" about it. It's only tragic to you and your fellow associates who publicized a "Mass Mormon Extinction." What message do you bring to the world? Hate? I respect your right to express your belief in your religion. I can see you are very "Passionate" about it. That reminds me of "Saul" who latter "named "Paul" of the New Testament. My sister–Why don't you pray about your own action? Truly pour your heart and soul for the benefit and welfate of your own "soul"-not worrying to much about the "Mormons." Because we are here "not" to "judge," but let our heart be "purified" in Christ. (Luke 6:35-38) Let me share with you what Paul's admonition when he said: For Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; Charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up," Look it up in l Cor 13:4-13. He also said that without charity it "profiteth us nothing." If you are passionate about "Jesus Christ" your "Master," then, love your "Mormon enemy" because He also said to "Love" your enemy. On my part, I will never have a problem to say; I Love You My Sister," But also to say with boldness that you are "Not" my enemy. My enemy is "Satan the Devil."

Kathy,
You, like many others, set yourself up as an authority on what members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe, even more than we members. This is absolutely not true for you say we do not believe some things which we do, showing that you do not know our doctrine well.
(Let me assure you I know our doctrines and history.)

We (Mormons or Latter Day Saints) believe the following:

1. Jesus Christ is God, -Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Word which was in the beginning, the Word which was with God and was God, and which was made flesh. He is the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophesy, a child that was born (of the Virgin Mary), a son that was given, even Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God as well, the Onlybegotton Son of the Father, full of Grace and truth. As such he could be the Savoir or the World and our personal Savior. We accept Him into our lives, take upon us His sacred name and follow and worship Him in all things. The Father and Son are one in purpose, in power, in authority, in righteousness, virtue, and godhood, but are separate and distinct individuals.

4. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father, except through Christ, through his Atonement and by His grace.

5. We rely "Wholly upon the merits of Christ for our Salvation" – quoted several times in the Book of Mormon: Without Christ and what He did for us there is no Salvation for us. In spite of all we do, we are unprofitable servants.

6. Christ died upon the cross. His body was in the tomb for three days and He was resurrected bodily and continues to live bodily and reigns on the Right hand of God, as witnessed by Stephan at his stoning. That Christ was resurrected is witnessed by many, other women, the early apostle, Paul on road to Damascus, John on the Isle of Patmos, some of the ancient American people (Book of Mormon) and in these latter days to Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon. He lives and we bear witness that He lives and is our Savior.

7. All people who ever have lived or will live will get a chance to learn of Christ and accept Him and thus be saved, at some time before their own resurrection and judgment. For some this chance comes while on the earth for others it will come later (See Peter 3 and 4). This is true regardless of race, color, or creed while on this earth, else God is not a just and impartial God. God loves ALL people as do we, those who believe in His son and choose to follow Him.

8. We should strive to become like God as far as being kinder, more loving, forgiving, just, merciful, and full of charity. We are sanctivied as we do, and are changed by the mercy of Christ.

9. We believe and follow the Bible as the Word of God, and all that it teaches about Jesus Christ and about God our Father.

10. We allow all to worship as they wish, and don't tell them what they believe, even when they do not agree.

Kathy,

The concept that men (and absolutely women too, of course) can become gods is not a Mormon invention as this post will clearly demonstrate. It is in your own Bible. Jesus quoted Psalms 82:6 when he taught:

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

Read both of these passages in context and you will find He is not referring to Himself but to mankind. We are Gods children and will mature to be like Him if we accept our Saviors word. "gods" is plural, not possessive in every English translation (except one) that I have checked out of about 28. We are His possessions, that is true, but that is not what Jesus was teaching here of what David was teaching in Psalms.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also teaches this in these examples:

p. 127 contextual question " Why Did The Word Become flesh?"
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p1.htm

p. 129 (paragraph 460) "For the Son of God became man that we might become God." (St. Athansius. De inc., 54, 3: PG 25, 192B)

p. 129 (paragraph 460) "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods." (St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57: 1-4)
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/460.htm

See also Genesis 3:22

I have about 3 or 4 more from the Catholic Catechism if anyone is interested, but these are the best ones.

A woman does not get her salvation through her husband in LDs teachings. She gets it through Jesus Christ and there is no other name. Not Joseph Smith, not Brigham Young, only Jesus Christ.

Mosiah 3:17 (that is from the Book of Mormon)
"And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent."

Mosiah 5:8-10 (again from the Book of Mormon)
And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.

The Book of Mormon teaches the exact same Gospel that is taught in the Bible. Read it and discover that it does not have the wicked concepts that you have heard Mormons believe in. I would reject the filthy concept that you think Mormons have, but I have discovered that Mormons do not believe such rot.

Hey Douglas – Tucson

How can the card be "completely accurate" if it states it's from the romneys, paid for by the boston temple?

And to answer your question, yes, Romney does believe in that verse you quoted, no, I don't think it would be bigotry to send out a card saying any christian candidate believed in it. If you look hard like they did though, I'm sure you could find verses that, if taken out of context like this one was, would make you irritated at their abusers.

Tim in Utah,

Your willingness to continue to attend when you are un-believeing is not so odd as you assume other would think. This is standard in all churches. I was in similar shoes in the LDS Church twice, once as a teenager in Utah (before my mission) and again when I was about 28 in Arizona. I had patience and continued to seek truth everywhere I could find it. Now I am firm and fully believing and comitted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints again. Questions are great, doubts can strengthen us as long as we are honest about them. Hang in there and you, your wife and children will be just fine because of the covenant the Savior Jesus Christ has made with you. He will take away your sins to the degree you will give them up.

Dear Jay Bee:

Thank you for your response and sharing releases of the church’s policy as released to the general public.

The Mormons I know adhere strictly to whatever the prophet says, not because they are necessarily ordered to do so but because they willingly submit to what they believe has gone from God’s mouth to the prophet’s ear. I wouldn’t expect differently from them since they truly believe the same - to not would in essence be an act of disobedience to God.

Obviously, the conflict here is that since I’m not a Mormon I personally don’t believe God is speaking with the prophet. Therefore, I wouldn’t want my president to be listening to that input and being influenced in any capacity whatsoever by it. This is not to say that I don’t recognize it’s your right to believe. The difference is that your believing it will not impact how my country is run.

As I also mentioned, one of my main issues with Mr. Romney is flip-flopping on the issues (which I don’t like in any candidate) and a perception that he is willing to be less than 100% honest in all matters in order to receive votes. Just look at his two most recent television advertisements: Among others, CNN’s Keeping Them Honest has shown that the ad against John McCain bent the facts into what was not an accurate portrayal of them; the advertisement against Mike Huckabee also contained erroneous information – Condaleeza Rice did not say his foreign policy as a whole was “ludicrous”, she merely said Mr. Huckabee’s characterization of President Bush’s current policy was “ludicrous”.

I don't support either of those two candidates. The problem is I don’t like negative campaign ads, and I don’t want to give someone my vote for president when they are already being less than honest to simply gain my vote.

If it’s discovered that the Christmas cards were sent with the knowledge of one of the candidates, that would also be completely unethical and I would never vote for that candidate either. However, I do think it’s fair to discuss what impact ANY of the candidates religious practices might have upon how our country is governed.

Let us all be glad that we live in the USA where we are free to discuss these issues and make our own free choices in whom shall receive our vote!

Cephas,

Thank you for your response and I do appreciate your friendly tone... I would first like to address the implications from another blogger that my post is full of hate... my post states the differences in our Christian beliefs, I don't think it is justified to accuse someone of hate, bigotry and ignorance just because they are stating their opposing thoughts. To be honest, I think resorting to those accusations is a convienient, and deceptive ' tactic' that many Mormons use. As to your accusations of my being demeaning and insulting.... I admit that I did get carried away in the beginning accusing Mormon men of being highly egotistical but... I'm sorry, I just can't get around the Mormon beliefs that include keeping women continuously pregnant in the afterlife to populate these new planets that the men will be rulers of and that women get their salvation thru their Mormon husbands and not thru Christ??? And that they will become a god themselves someday EQUAL with God!!!???? These beliefs are beyond comprehension to me, they are ANTI-Christian and it is egotism to the HIGHEST degree. And these beliefs are based on the claims of a man that lived some 200 years ago... claims of visions, revelations and the 'discovery' of ancient engraved 'Golden plates' buried in Manchester, New York??
One of the most important teachings of Christianity is humility and service to others... Jesus washing his diciple's feet is one example... how does men becoming equal with God and rulers of their own planets coincide with this???? It seems to me that if you want to start a new religion all you have to do is proclaim ideas / beliefs that the sinful side of man wants to hear. The New Testament shows that the heresy of Christianity started almost immediately, Gnosticism being a perfect example, where believers ( who also considered themselves Christians ) didn't have to live by moral restraints, that salvation was not by faith in Christ but by having 'special knowledge'.

I agree with you that everyone deserves the right to worship how they see fit. This is a God given right... it is the free will that he has given us. And we are also free to disagree with others beliefs and state our opinions accordingly. The motivation of the anti-Mormon (Christian) crowd should be trying to save souls who are following destructive beliefs (and I think that is true with the majority)..and I will state again... the most DESTRUCTIVE belief is that Jesus' sacrifice; his death on the cross, and faith in him is NOT the COMPLETE way to salvation. To change the very belief that the true Christian religion of the New Testament is based on and the ONLY way to the saving of our souls is without a doubt the work of Satan and a man namedJoseph Smith.

In response to your statement that Mormons believe that their view of Christ ( that he is separate from God ) is more consistent with that of the Bible and 1st century Christians... I will quote two of several passages in the New Testament where it states that Jesus is God...
Romans 9:5 "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen". Romans is believed to be written by the apostle Paul in the spring of A.D. 57.
The other is John 1:1 " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." The book of John is believed to have been written around the year A.D. 85. I would like to add at this point that both of these men died a true martyr's death for their faith. Mormons view Joseph Smith's death as martyrdom but many find that questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

You are also right that there is more to discuss than there is time and space.
And at this point I'll say that if my tone seems demeaning and insulting I apologize but my intentions are good and if there is hatred in my words they are not directed at Mormon believers but at the lies and deception of those opposed to our Lord.
I would also like to include this from my previous post:

TRAGICALLY, MANY MORMONS MAY NOT EVEN BE FULLY AWARE OF THE DOCTRINES AND HISTORY OF THEIR OWN CHURCH.

The website http://www.macgregorministries.org/mormons/facts.html
has much more information on what Mormons believe but won't tell you ( and will often lie about ). This site ENCOURAGES you to do your own research and for Mormons to refer to their own publications to verify the information on this site.

Dear AmericanVoter,

You mention: "Since Mitt is a faithful Mormon, he would be obligated to follow the supposed pronouncements of God through their prophet in all aspects of his life."

Because you believe the "obligated" idea, you have no need to fear should Romney become President. Mormons are free to vote for any platform they think best represents their personal views. His prophet has authorized the following statements:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not:
-Direct its members as to which candidate or party for which they should vote
-Allow its church buildings, membership lists or other resources to be used for partisan political purposes (a strict rule)
-Endorse, promote or oppose political parties, candidates or platforms
-Attempt to direct or dictate to a government leader

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does:
-Encourage members to be responsible citizens, acquainted with issues and participating in voting
-Expect members to be civil and informed about partisan political matters
-Request that candidates do not imply their candidacy or platform is endorsed by the Church
-Reserve the right to speak in a nonpartisan way about issues of moral consequence

Finally, Mormon public officials fervently represent their constituency, not the Church:

"Elected officials who are Latter-day Saints make their own decisions and
may not necessarily be in agreement with one another or even with a publicly
stated Church position. While the Church may communicate its views to them, as
it may to any other elected official, it recognizes that these officials still
must make their own choices based on their best judgment and with consideration of the constituencies whom they were elected to represent."
http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/political-neutrality

Because Romney is a "faithful Mormon" he will make his own decisions and represent his constituency, the People of the United States of America, if he were elected President.

Wow! If this is how people do politics in America, then it is pretty sad to say but, America is falling to the level of every other country in the world. Whoever threw out that ridiculous smear should come forward and apologize. I mean seriously, is that what you have to do to win a political race? Who would want someone that does that for a president?

Regarding several comments:

"..those whose skins are not white and fair may detect the odor of racism in the quotation."

Wouldn't Mary, as a 0 century AD Jew in the region of Jerusalem, likely have a light complexion? But whatever her skin color may have been, and that aside, to suppose any observation of skin color of any person in itself necessarily negatively contrasts with others is absurd. If two people in a room have different skin colors, and someone points out that they have different skin colors, is that by itself racist? Does mere observation of differences between people constitute slander in itself? To say so has to outright invent a whole lot of bad context that doesn't even exist in singular, harmless statements.

And regarding this:

"..Of course, Mormonism came of age during a very racist time in American history and it is reflected in the books that Mormon leaders concocted back then. The Old Testament has some very creepy stuff in it too, but let's not start quoting chapter and verse."

Why not quote chapter and verse? You have commented on the supposed racism which you yourself inject into a particular verse. This is the equivalent of Huckabee's saying that he won't say something but then saying it. And it isn't said only about mormon scripture – but also a book that wider Christianity supports – the Bible.

Also, "concocted" is a statement of opinion given as fact. A person who believes Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon would not use the word "concocted", they might say "translated" To say "concocted" is to say he made it up, pulled stuff together to form it, or made it from nothing. It would be more direct and open to say, assuming it is even relevant to a political discussion, to say something more direct like "By the way, Joseph Smith didn't translate anything. He made it all up." Frankly, the rather inderect yet plain use of the word "concocted" smacks of an attitude that assumes everyone thinks Joseph Smith made it up, or that this is the only rational, right, or reasonable point of view. I hope you would be aware that this implicit assumption casually overlooks a differing point of view which millions of people hold, which frankly smacks of a whole lot of disrespect. Implicitly asserting that something is "just so", and against the religious views of others, is disrespectful of their right to hold that view. And that strong assumed bias is very ironic, considering these next statements:

"Romney himself benefits because of the sympathy he is now getting as the victim of bigotry, so supporters of Romney may be behind it (and perhaps not known to Romney himself)."

We would assume that someone asserting that others are a victim of bigotry or strong bias would make diligent effort to free their own points of view from disrespectful assumptions, or bigotry or strong bias. But even while bigotry is pointed out elsewhere it exists in the words of the one doing the pointing. Worse, it speculates that the source of the victimization is the victims themselves. Please draw up proof. Otherwise, drop the insulting speculation.

Kathy from Sarasota,

There is more to discuss with you than there is time or space to do it in.

1) Mormons don't mind discussing differences in faith. We believe very deeply that everyone deserves the right to worship how they see fit. We appreciate meaningful dialog about differences in faith. What we don't like is the demeaning, insulting tone and manner in which it is done, or in other words bigoted. The anti-mormon crowd prances around trying to claim the moral high ground and shouting down anyone who disagrees. That’s what we don't like.

2) Please allow me to respectfully submit that your understanding of FUNDEMENTAL Christian beliefs may be somewhat limited. After the ascension of Christ and the death of the Apostles, 1st & 2nd Century Christians quickly split into multiple groups and things got a bit more than strange – but that’s another discussion. But one thing was pretty much common amongst the different Groups; Jesus Christ was considered a Prophet, the Messiah and even the Son of God. But rarely was he seen as God incarnate until the Council of Nicaea. And that decision was made by vote (A.D. 325 – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea). Mormons simply believe that their view of Christ is more consistent with that of the Bible and 1st Century Christians.

3) In short most of the anti-mormon garbage to which you’ve obviously been exposed, relies upon the fact that the majority of folks don’t really know what the words Fundamental, Historical and Bible Based mean in regards to Christianity. Else it relies on the misrepresentation of doctrine and/or quote from past Mormon leaders.

4) Lastly and I hope you don’t take this wrong, but 30 minutes spent online scouring the LDS Church’s websites looking for seemingly scandalous quotes and supposed “doctrine” doesn’t make one a Mormon Scholar.

The card quote from Orson Pratt turns out to be from a source that was repudiated by the Church:

"One other thing. I find in this review ten lengthy quotations from the Seer which was published by Orson Pratt, yet the Seer by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work–the Seer–together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate."
(From a speech delivered June 9, 1907 and also recorded in B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.2, p.294)

For those interested in seeing that official repudiation, it is found in Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.2, p.238 October 21st 1865.

Why do some people expect Latter-day Saints to be perfect, and then when a Mormon apologizes for a mistake they decide they will not let it alone. Orson Pratt wrote a book trying to addres concerns in the hot-bed of Washington DC and it was repudiated in 1865, the again in 1907 and now I find myself doing it in 2008. Giv it a rest.

I made a mistake (granted it was due to my bias) supposing that this Orson Pratt quote was false. Now that I discover that it is accurate, but very obscure and from a repudiated source. This should be an example of the kind of attack Mitt Romney would have to deal with if he chose to defend his Church from such weak-minded attacks. It is also a result of how extremely open the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is and has been to its teachings.

Kathy, if you will not take my word for it I am sad, but as I Mormon I testify that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the third member of the Godhead. This is clear in the First Article of Faith that Joseph Smith wrote and the Church has always taught it. Hundreds of millions of Christians agree that Jesus is divine.

Tim and Cephas–Speaking of the above mentioned "Humans" of the old times–surely what I am trying to say was that we are all human being and that we are capable of making mistakes. This fundamental truth applies to Joseph Smith and the early leaders, and the present times as well. In 1John 1:6 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We all know that every ones faith is tried one way or the other. Peter said, "That the trial of your faith, being precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" Foremost to this–I humbly declare that I have a lot of respect and love to the prophet Joseph Smith beause He sealed his "Testimony" with his own blood. Let it be known to the world inspite of inhuman acts of arrogance, condemnation, and hatred towards us Mormons. Afterall, the Saviour said, "love thy neighbor as thyself as well as thy enemy." For Jesus said: If we love only those who loves us what reward have we?"

Cephas and Tim – I stand an awe–filled with admiration to both of you my brother in Christ. I agree with you Cephas that the "early leaders were all "Human." However, That noble entity reflects to all both leaders and members of the past and even in the present times. Figuratively speaking, I would say that even back in the ancient times the leaders were all "human," that includes Adam. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; then, in the midieval times–Peter, James, John, Judas and all the apostleswere all human; save Jesus Christ only . We all know that our Saviour Jesus Christ is perfect, and in the same manner–He also built His Church. Indeed, the church is "perfect" but the members are not, but are "trying and working-on" to follow Christ admonition when he said, "be ye there perfect even as I and your Father in Heaven is perfect." Read, Eph. 2:19-20, Matt. 5:48, and Eph. 4:11-15. Well, sure sounds familiar, Huh! I served a mission in the Philippine, and it was the best part of my life–being a convert of the "restored church." I do believe that our Heavenly Father answers prayer–when "anybody" truly yearns with much "hunger and thirst" to know the "truth." Cephas thank you for the thought about what Joseph Smith has said: I know it and I know that God knows I know it, therefore I Cannot deny it." These also came to me, when my simple prayer was answered while kneeling "in the middle of the rice field." Have a wonderful day Tim and Chepas. God Speed...

http://www.evangelicalsforromney.com

Go Mitt!!!

Kathy from Sarasota: Wow! Someone who hates no one so full of hate and untruths. May God bless you!!

Dale E, you are correct I am not a Prophet. But neither are you qualified to interpret or even identify LDS Church Doctrine. I hope you don't go around telling folks you "understand" Mormons.

BTW: I'll give you a point for the Prophet remark, you caught me off guard on that one.

Tim – I appoligize for getting a little testy with my FBI remark. But the nasty tone of your post got under my skin. But my remaining comments still stand. I'm sorry you've experienced so much conflict, but don't feel obligated to spread it around. My basic premise boils down to this, you're confusing discourse for doctrine, postulation for principle and reflection for revelation (ok that last one didn't really fit but I was on a roll). In all of your study, folks such as yourself forget to allow for the fact that those you study are human. But often when you get right down to it, that is what folks like yourself are really steamed about, after all your digging, all your probing of the information freely handed you by the Church itself, you walk away bewildered that the early leaders of this Church were – Human – and not the supermen you grew up thinking they were. Sorry that that poses such a doctrinal crisis for you, but thats the way it is. Joesph Smith said it himself: "I am but a man, if you supposed any differently then I'm sorry to disappoint you" – Not sure that is a word for word quote but you get the picture. I've seen, read and/or at least purused most of the junk you've gone through and was left with one, I'll call it an unrelenting thought; "The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is true, despite our best efforts to ruin it". I'll paraphrase Joesph Smith again: "I know it and I know that God knows I know it, therefore I CANNOT deny it." Hopefully one day you'll learn to discern what is and isn't doctrine. I hope so.

Republican Against Romney–I think you are judging Mitt Romney wrong. And I think you are pretending to be a member of a Mormon faith. You said, you prefer not to "judge" him, but in this case you already have. You said, "I have been utterly shocked and dismayed as I have witnessed Mitt Romney – arguably the most well-known Latter-day Saint in the United States – mock and disregard some of the most sacred and fundamental principles of his own faith for worldly gain and glory." You my good friend, cannot bring any justification for attacking Mitt, as far as his "eternal salvation" is concerned. Your comment is more like a "Christian propaganda" an has nothing to do with the "real issues" that are happening in our country. My biggest point is-We are all not perfect–And nobody can pleased the world. If you expect Mitt to be perfect–then "you" must be perfect??

Wow... talk about the male ego... the Mormon religion does nothing but serve Joseph Smith's ego and all the males that follow him. Disgusting... and the souls of millions will be lost because of this man. He is nothing more than an ordinary human being with the work of Satan behind him. To deny that the death of Christ COMPLETELY saves the soul if one believes in him is blasphemy. Mormons want to be considered Christians yet their religion contradicts the FUNDAMENTAL beliefs of Christianity!!! They deny that Christ is God!! And so therefor his death on the cross is not the saving grace that God has given us. That is NOT a Christian belief!!!!
I've done research on the internet ( and that means getting BOTH sides of the story...not just visiting the official Mormon websites like many here advise to get the 'truth' about the Mormon religion ) and many here stoop to the level of accusing anyone who speaks against the Mormon religion as filled with hate, intolerance and bigotry... sorry but I don't hate anyone... I DO hate lies and falsehoods against our Lord, manipulation and the work of Satan .... people who are not Mormons but accuse others of intollerance, bigotry and hate, have no idea what they are defending.... You all are the ones who are ignorant and you need to DO SOME RESEARCH before you come to the defense of a satanic cult!!!! DO you want a man who lives by the following beliefs running your country!!!

Christ's death on the cross only PARTIALLY saves the sinner.

That they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you.

That they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be "Heavenly Father" over their own planet!

That Jesus was really Lucifer's brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a "heavenly council" vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!!

On their Salt Lake City Temple they prominently display an upside-down star which is a Satanic symbol known as the Goat's head!! Why??
Tragically, many Mormons may not even be fully aware of the doctrines and history of their own church. The website http://www.macgregorministries.org/mormons/facts.html
has much more information on what Mormons believe but won't tell you ( and will often lie about ). This site ENCOURAGES you to do your own research and for Mormons to refer to their own publications to verify the information on this site.

I agree with John and would be very interested in Steve's answer to his question. Steve quotes, "One God, one faith, one baptism." Which is it Steve? Maybe if Steve studied each of the many religions on the earth today he would find out that each and every one of them, with the exception of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is a break off from another. Do any of you ever stop and wonder why there are so many people spouting off so much anti-mormon garbage out there? So many of todays religions take the time in their services to teach anti-mormon to their congregations and the libraries in their churches have so much anti-mormon literature. What do they feel so threatened by? I'm sure that Satan must be feeling very threatened by the truths that are found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. You will not find true Latter-Day Saints trashing other religions. We believe that their is truth in all religions and that there are good people in all religions. We just believe that we have been blessed with the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and offer these truths to any who are interested. We are not forced to believe these things. One of the greatest gifts our Heavenly Father has given us is the gift of free agency. We are free to choose for ourselves. As a female member of the Church I don't feel inferior to the men and I know that my salvation is dependent on my actions and not the actions of another. I receive nothing but respect from the brethren of the church. Our job is to love one another as our Saviour, Jesus Christ, has loved us. What a wonderful world this would be if we all did this. May each of you find the truth that brings you and yours peace and happiness in this life.

Huckster Huckabee just sunk even lower by instigating this nasty attack on Romney. These people can't even own up to their own stinking mailings now. They have to hide behind the temple in Boston for crying out loud. Add the Word COWARD to the Bible Belt Bigot and Hillbilly Huckster Huckabee's resume and that of his ministerial minions.

Yes, I got one of those original nasty grams from our local evangelical minister filled with hateful deceipt, lies or half truths.

Steve quoted "One God, one faith, one baptism" to justify Mormons not being Christian.

So which baptism is it that's real? Catholic? Methodist? Church of Christ? 700 Club? Ted Haggart's group?

Whoever did this may have been the same group that smeared McCain for having a "black baby." It worked in 2000, and neither Romney nor McCain will win SC this year. Don't SC voters get tired of these tactics?

As a member, in good standing, of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I prefer to refrain from making judgments regarding Mitt Romney’s eternal salvation. I can, however, submit that Romney, in my view and based upon the intimate knowledge I have regarding Romney’s Latter-day Saint faith, is an unethical and dishonest politician. I cloud go on and on about the many dishonest and unethical things Romney has said and done as a politician. Suffice it to say, for Latter-day Saints, being honest in our dealings with our fellow man is considered a fundamental standard of behavior necessary to attend the temple and be a member in good standing. According to the late Bruce R. McConkie, the most renowned and highly respected Mormon theologian of the 20th century, “honesty is one of the characteristics exhibited by all who are worthy to be numbered with the saints of God. Honest persons are fair and truthful in their speech, straightforward in their dealings, free from deceit, and above misrepresentation or any other fraudulent action.” I have been utterly shocked and dismayed as I have witnessed Mitt Romney – arguably the most well-known Latter-day Saint in the United States – mock and disregard some of the most sacred and fundamental principles of his own faith for worldly gain and glory. I implore all good Christian men and women to abstain from voting for Mitt Romney. Those who do vote for Romney will share the responsibility for promoting a corrupt and dishonest man to the highest office in our land.

http://republicansagainstromney.blogspot.com/

to Cephas and the FBI!

My family joined the church when I was three years old. I served a mission. I was married at the age of 21 in the Provo Temple. Sound Mormon enough to you insiders out there?!

I have served as

AP on my mission
Stake Mission Leader
Elders Quorum President
Elders Quorum Counselor
Elders Quorum Instructor
Stake Young Men Presidency
Sunday School President
among others.......

I did so all before my 28th birthday. In my late twenties I began to have concerns about church doctrine and began reading the actual history of the church, not what little was covered every Sunday (Todd Compton's "In Sacred Lonliness" about Joseph Smiths 33 wives and Grant Palmer's "An Insder's View of Mormon Origins" are very helpful). Both are active members in the church and neither was excommunicated for their writings. But it was enough for me to know the church is not what it purports to be.

My wife remains very committed to the church. She knows how I feel as do each of my last four Bishops. I currently serve in the Primary where I attend to help and teach my disabled son's class.

So I am an active, non-believing member of the church. You would be surprised how many of us are out there.

Well, suppose Joe Lieberman was running for president, and someone sent a Happy Holidays card from "the Lieberman family" and the "Connecticut synagogue" and you open it up to find Old Testament verses about how disobedient children should be stoned to death.

Whether or not the quotes are from the O.T. are missing the point. Someone is lying in wait to deceive by making it look like they are from a camp that they are not. For this reason alone, this should be condemned.

Now as for the cult thing, according to newsweek, LDS members will soon pass Judaism worldwide. Does that mean Judaism has to be viewed as a cult too? 'Cult" is an ugly word many evangelicals like to use to marginalize and dehumanize members of the LDS faith. To me, real cults die out. "Cult" is Jim Jones, David Koresh stuff. Evangelicals would probably define Islam and Buddhism as cults too. Sticks & stones.

I wish a Scientologist would run for president. I'd like to know more about what they believe. Like why is it a religion and not just a philosophy, as it was started by a science-fiction author who never claimed divine inspiration or anything? Or a Jehovah's Witness so we could learn more about the Watchtower.

Meanwhile I pray for a McCain-Obama election, where I'd be fine if either candidate won.

Previously, I was an ‘investigator’ (Mormon term for interested party) in the Church of LDS for a rather lengthy period of time. The people I met during were for the most part kind and generous, as you would find in most organized religions. LDS doctrine dictates that one not only accept Christ as your Savior, but Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. When attending services, 99% of testimonials regarded witnessing for Joseph Smith rather than Jesus. Alas, prayer and research led me to not accept Joseph Smith.

Aside from Mr. Romney’s propensity for flip-flopping, my issue with him as a president is the knowledge that members of the church believe that God speaks directly (via the umin and thummin) with the modern-day prophet of their church. This accounts for many of the changes in Mormon doctrine over the years rather than “God is the same today, tomorrow and forever”. Those amendments in doctrine have sometimes been radical, ranging from changes in polygamy practices to acceptance of other races.

Since Mitt is a faithful Mormon, he would be obligated to follow the supposed pronouncements of God through their prophet in all aspects of his life. Beliefs such as that make him a potentially dangerous to our country as a whole. I would rather see an atheist with a sound mind and good morals in control of our country than someone so heavily influenced by a single, totally human and imperfect, individual.

As a proud American, I believe in an individual’s right to religious freedom; I’m not a hate monger and don’t wish to restrict their members rights to believe what they choose. However, in this instance this man is running for our president. Therefore, I feel within my rights and responsibilities to consider all factors and their potential effect on our country.

For "Tim in Utah" and others who are getting their information from "The Journal of Discourses", you might want to see this:

The Journal of Discourses

The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It includes practical advice as well as doctrinal discussion, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest.

Additional Information

The content of the Journal of Discourses was transcribed, sometimes inaccurately, and published between 1853 and 1886 in England. The compilation contains some statements of doctrine as well as other materials of interest to Latter-day Saints who lived far from the center of the Church, including speeches given for a variety of occasions, funeral addresses, reports from returning missionaries, prayers, and the proceedings of a trial.

The Journal of Discourses was produced under the guidance of those who transcribed the materials, including George D. Watt, David W. Evans, and George W. Gibbs.

Skilled in the use of shorthand, George D. Watt had transcribed many conferences and sermons for the Deseret News. He received little pay for his work. Since the Deseret News was not generally available outside of the United States, Watt proposed to Brigham Young the idea of publishing these materials on a subscription basis. Such a plan would make the materials available to more Saints and allow Elder Watt to earn a living with his work. President Brigham Young supported the plan, and a letter from the First Presidency was included in the first volume encouraging Church members to cooperate in the "purchase and sale" of the journal.

Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.

I too can cut and paste only I went to the LDS.org for this, not some pamphlet or anti-mormon publication. Absolutely NOWHERE are the quotes attributed to Brigham Young and others supported outside of the circulation of such afore mentioned anti-mormon crap!

As an SC Republican Primary voter I always get a kick out of how these Northeast media types come up with these silly things. In 2000 they spread a story about a supposed flyer that targeted McCain. Funny thing is no voters ever saw this mythological flyer. What a coincidence that the Northeast media was pimping McCain on everyone at the same time.

I get multiple phone calls from Republican campaigns every single day. I get mailings from them many times a week. Every Republican campaign has signs up all over our county since we have picked the winner of the nomination here every year since 1980. I have not seen this dumb card nor has anyone else that I know. If it had been widely circulated we would have gotten it here because every R campaign knows that there are 5 Republican Primary voters living at this address.

Y'all have fun with this made-up story now. We'll let you know who the nominee will be real soon– and the NY/DC media won't have anything to do with it. Even though they'll keep tryin'.

Although the method of this attack is clearly unethical, it nevertheless points to an issue relevant in this election. If a candidate was once a member of a racist organization such as the KKK or even a less extreme institution like a whites only country club, would we consider this an issue worth discussing? The Mormon church officially forbade blacks and other races of color from participating in many aspects of the church. This didn't change until 1978 when the church was expanding into Africa and South America and Romney was already in his 30s. The church believed (and still does) that people of color are dark skinned because of a punishment given to their wicked ancestors long ago. Furthermore the church states clearly that men only are the heads of families and the church, above the women. It seems to me that many people are avoiding these issues for fear of being labeled a religious bigot. Racism and sexism are relevant, whether religion is involved or not!

Welcome to the GOP frankenstein that Rove and Bush created, thank you very much. Even as a Goldwater Republican, I have no sympthay for Romney or anyone else caught in this net of sleaze and theocracy run amok. Its the proverbial chickens coming home to roost. Where were the rational, traditional Conservatives over the past 7 years while Rove and Bush destroyed MY party just to hold onto power?? They all get exactly what they deserve... which is Hillary in the White House. Maybe that will allow the real Conservatives to clean house of all these Elmer Gantry's and start over.

I did not figure Romney being a Mormon as an important issue until reading the dishonest representations by the Mormon defenders on this blog.

Romney is a liar that belongs to a heretical cult. Are we really going to play the Clinton game of what simple words mean? He said he "saw" his father march with MLK which is a "lie." Or are we going to redefine the definition of the word "lie"?

Cephas,
I did read what you posted however you are not a prophet of the church and do not talked directly to God as does the LDS prophet. I put much more weight in what a Prophet of the church states than I would a news blogger such as yourself.

David,
Bravo! Your post is exactly the point. It is not Mormonism that is sinking Mitt. It is his incessant storytelling and changing his position on Marting Luther King, stance on abortion and gay rights (military). I thought John Kerry was a flopper... at least he fought in a war to protects us just as the brave souls are doing so in Iraq. Mitt has nothing but political experience in his pocket full of tricks.

CJ: Sorry, no. When Romney decided to run for President, he immidiately calculated that he needed to court the religious right. He has been making faith a central part of his campaign from day one. He has also tried his best to blur the differences between his LDS faith and evangelicals and to emphasise the commonalities in an effort to get their votes.

His recent "faith" speech was simply his effort to try to get the religion issue back on his side or at least minimize the damage that Huckabee and others had caused to the Romney campaign. But while saying out of one side of his mouhth that his religion shouldn't be an issue in this campaign out of the other side, he was claiming that being religious was a requirement for democracy. His hypocrisy knows no bounds!

Because Romney the the Republican party have made religiosity a central part of their campaigns, they and he are now reaping what they have sown. Romney now needs to explain why someone who believe in his own impending divininty should get the vote of someone who insists that there is only one eternal God and no others. That's fine for a theological discussion but ridiculous as an argument over who is to be the Leader of the Free World. The Karl Rove plan to court Evangelical Christians will now prove to be the catalyst for the destruction of the Republican coalition.

Thanks CNN for making sure the majority of these postings are anti-Republican, it's nice to see that the liberals have their claws dug tight into the media.

This Christmas letter has as much, or as little, meaning as people give it. Regardless of the content of this letter, if it did not come from the Romney family, shame on those who sent it. If it did come from the Romney camp, shame on them for this underhanded tactic. In either case, it's not going to effect who I'm voting for.

Personally, I only care about a candidate's religion to the extent that I don't want to live in a country where decisions are made based upon one person's religious beliefs. If I am confident a candidate will make decisions based upon what is best for the country, all groups and religions, and not strictly according to his/her spiritual beliefs, then it doesn't matter what their religion is to me.

I wonder if one of these bloggers is a party to it and is promoting it here. What a go! How much blood do you want in America's streets because you promote intolerance, bigotry, and hate. We don't need your kind of hate mentality in this country. The ignorant will surely take up your banner to persecute or kill those that seek peace.

Adam,

Like Tim you are not impressing anyone here either. Apparently you are either too young to remember or are not a student of history. The comments quoted on this blog as being made by LDS leaders in the 1950's and 60's are tame compared with that made by the leaders of other denominations during that same time. It was a turbulent time for our country and there is plenty of blame to go around. What is appalling is your continued insistence that something is true when it clearly isn’t. It would be like me saying that all Baptists are racist because the predominant religion of choice among members of the KKK is Baptist ergo all Baptists are racist.

By the way, I don’t believe it has been independently verified but it is apparently true that most KKK members also consider themselves Baptists. – Now see, what good did that statement do – none?

It is easy to use the words of others to create inflametory impressions. Grow up a little – please.

Dale E ,

Shhh, you might give my husband that idea! LOL

Haha, I love how all these Mormons say "go to lds.org to find out about our church". They probably point you there so there vists go up and they can claim that more people are interested in their church. As far as this goes..its public life, deal with it. Politics is a dirty place..

I think the "exceedingly fair and white" part was referring more as a metaphor, as in – fair meaning "good" and white – "pure" or something of the like.

There are many, many things in the scriptures – bible, book of mormon, etc. – that are written in this way and not meant to be taken so literally, as many of us mistakenly do.
I hope we are all smart enough to realize that a politician such as Romney, or any politician running for President and who is in the eye of the public, would never make a racial slur such as that. . . seriously sad that some one would stoop so low...

To Colonel, I just want to clarify that Romney DID NOT bring his religion into this: That was forced upon him by pundits insisting he address it. He did everything he could to make this election about the issues and NOT about religion. When people like yourself say that he brought this on himself, you would be dead wrong about that! He tried to keep his religious beliefs and his political views separate....people like you insisted otherwise and now we have this mess!

Funny how the pot calls the kettle black....how many members of the KKK in the 1950s and 1960s were Southern Baptist? I don't recall hearing of any Catholics or Mormons participating in hangings and lynchings. It took the Southern Baptists until the mid 1980's to acknowledge their sinful past. Seems like Huckabee and the Baptists have issues too....not sure why all the "Christians" are pointing the fingers.

Folks, I offer as evidence of my suspecting Tim's involvement in the mess, the over use of UPPER CASE lettering for emphasis, just like the bolded characters in the card mailed to SC Republicans. Common practice in some circles, I know, but very coincidental if you ask me. It would be like the criminal keeping an eye on the scene of the crime.

Tim you're being dishonest with the rest of the class, you are NOT a Mormon. At least not a practicing Mormon. You indicated as much in your first entry. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find out that you were involved either directly or indirectly with this whole Christmas Card thing. And I hope the FBI is monitoring this blog becuse the vain and mode of your comments is exactly that of the card in question.

All you've really done is to prove that anyone can learn how to "cut and paste".

Sir, you too are confusing the utterances of any Mormon Leader with doctrine. You're taking their comments out of context and out of time and place.

By your reasoning, if the Prophet were to walk up to the podium in the conference center during General Conference and order a "Tuna Melt Combo with a large Coke" that would then become doctrine and all Mormoms would be eating Tuna Melts and drinking coke for lunch. (coke joke intended)

Now might I suggest you stop inciting confusion and discontent. Or we'll have to send you to the principal's office and call your parents.

*** FOLKS, If this guy really is a member of the LDS Church then someone please ask him for his secret decoder ring back!

I just wanted to make some historical observations here...remember me? I am the LDS one of Jewish lineage from a previous post? Well, first of all, the Israelites, who were the children of Abraham and were led out of bondage by Moses, were a white race.....Judaism is a religion, Jewish is a race or more commonly called Hebrew. Hebrews/Jews were white. They may have been dark haired or dark eyed, but believe it or not, blue eyes were extremely common. Jews were also quite racist, if you will forgive that usage. They were not tolerant of "gentiles" or "heathens", anyone not of their ancestry or their faith....as evidenced by their rejection of Christ (of course, not all of them, but many more than embraced him). Interracial or interfaith marriage was strictly forbidden, so I would challenge anyone who thinks that any other racial aspects in their common bloodlines was typical. Their physical appearance was in sharp contrast from the other middle eastern cultures, most importantly the "Ishmaelites" who were more commonly referred to as Persian, Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian....etc. The Ismaelites were also the descendants of Abraham, just as the Jews, but were from his wife's servant, Hagar (yes, like it or not, the Jews were known to practice servitude....I don't know if it went to the full extent of slavery or not), whom we know was an Egyptian. Therefore, there were two distinct "races", coexisting in close proximity in that region. OH, I almost forgot, there were also the Romans, who were of a clearly decided European appearance.

I really don't know what all this hubbub has to do with Romney, Christmas cards of a questionable origin, politics in general, or any other tangent that this post seems to be running to.

As I stated before, I am in the John Edwards quarter and there has been nothing I've seen here that would change my mind there. I would like to say though, that I have seen the Romney ads and I am struck by the way he expresses his admiration for the men that he is running against, but points out their political track record as being different from his. I just don't see how this is dirty politics. Isn't this what a candidate is supposed to do? Aren't they supposed to show you how they have distinguished themselves from their opponents? I also agree that he has flip-flopped and I don't have a problem with that because he as admitted that he "changed his position" once he was shown that he was wrong or was convinced otherwise. This tells me that the man is teachable, which I think is an extremely desirable quality in a President. Aren't we all torqued about Bush's inability to admit he acted on false information and was unwilling to adjust his policies to fall into line with his newer more accurate information? I for one, would have had more admiration for him if he were to have done so. I don't want someone in office who will cling to a misguided course, just to save face. I don't consider citing political track records as mudslinging, but I do consider attacks on one's religion, lifestyle, or character as mudslinging. I have not seen that from Romney. I have seen that from Clinton, Huckabee and McCain. Just deplorable in my book. I WANT to know how a candidate has acted with respect to crime and immigration and abortion and equal rights for gays/lesbians, even polygamists, because after all, isn't that also a lifestyle choice? I'm not saying that I endorse polygamy, because I certainly don't, but I do not believe you can protect by law one lifestyle choice and not others.

Just in case you are wondering why a Mormon would not support another Mormon, i.e. Romney? Simply this: He just rubs me the wrong way....can't put my finger on it. And for the record, I would vote for a Scientologist if that Scientologist were, say, Will Smith, but absolutely not for, oh, say Tom Cruise. See the difference? People can be of one religion or another and be presidential material and others would be disastrous! And if King Hussein I of Jordan or his son Abdullah II were running for president, either one would have my vote because they are men of integrity who place an emphasis on the value of the people as their greatest asset. So much for religion in my voting preferences

We can sum up: Obama is the best for this task. He knows what he will do. Remember that Bill Clinton does not run. Therefore, Hillary believes she has experience for this job. This is a real illusion. We do not take that. By the way, we know that Edwards is changing every time... We do not know his position about vital topics ( aborption, foreign policy, health insurance....). Only Obama does the real and practical purposes for all America... In short , Obama is the symbol of change we are waiting for and asking for...

I agree. Let's not be so quick to judge. The quotes are accurate. I'm really not sure why folks are so up in arms. I don't think there would be such concern about a "slam" if someone was quoting the Bible accurately.

This card is absolutely innocuous to Mitt Romney's campaign. Polygamy and racism are old doctrines that the church of the LDS has since corrected. Besides Mitt has already addressed his position on these issues numerous times. So, there is no real damaging info here. Anyone who has studied Mormonism can tell you that there are many more bizarre present-day teachings of the LDS which could potentially cause greater scrutiny and wariness of Mitt's faith.

I seriously don't think that cash-strapped Mike Huckabee would foolishly waste his limited resources on a lame trick that does not help him at all. In fact, it hurts HIS image, not Romney's. The only real damage this holiday card does is raise the outcry against Huckabee as a religious bigot, while Romney is sits back playing the poor, persecuted victim.

I admit that this is a slick ploy that seems to be effective in getting the public to demonize Huckabee. It is more likely that Romney or Romney supporters orchestrated this propaganda garbage. IMO, Mitt's prints are all over it.

I don't understand why this is considered a bigoted act. I can see it as a dirty trick in that someone is trying to highlight some of the LDS faith's most controversial beliefs. All of the quotes and statements are acurate and Mormons really do believe that God has multiple wives and that they may also become gods and goddesses if they live faithful lives.

The problem, as I see it, is that politicians have injected religion far too much into politics. Romney himself has made a point of pointing out his belief in Christ as his savior. Who cares? There is no Constitutional requirement for candidates for public office to believe in Jesus, Mohammed or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Romney, and to a lesser extent Huckabee, are now just reaping what they and others have sown. Since Romney has made his faith such a central part of his campaign, it is, in my opinion, perfectly fair to highlight the details of his faith and how they may differ from orthodox Christianity.

Mitt Romney is undoubtedly the best candidate in either party to lead us through these perilous times, especially with the war in iraq and the situation in Pakistan. He has a long list of foreign policy advisors, and is in touch with today's realities.
I've met Mitt on 2 occasions, and I can vouch for the fact that this man has the character, integrity, intelligence, and convictions to qualify for President of the United States. God help us all should someone else be elected.

David, who's lying now? He never said he marched with MLK. He said he saw his father march with him, which his father did do. Mitt Romney just didn't see it with his own eyes, he saw it in the figurative sense. Also, I consider myself a lifelong hunter too, but don't go all that much either. By who's standard are you judging him against? You bearing false witness against your neighbor?

Not exactly shocking that one set of cult members are attacking another set of cult members. That's what these cults are for, codifying hate. And yes I meant cult; religion is just a cult plus time.

Virgin Births, Flying Horses, Parting Rivers and Golden Plates all make just about as much sense. None.

Bunch of fools arguing about which way to position an egg before eating it.

Charles in Salt Lake City–Basicly, your writing (undocumented context) is just a matter of your unbiased opinion about the Mormons. The whole context is very manipulative in a sense that you are trying to "enslave" peoples mind against the Mormons. Indeed, it is an "Old old Story" and it is not true. You can proved it how you want, but that is not going to affect the "heart and mind" of the American people as a whole. Yes.:) You are waisting your time making negative slars about the Mormons. Why don't you "humble yourself before Heavenly Father and Savious Jesus Christ to make a better and meaningful life for you. I am a Mormon myself, and I am "Brown." but I never felt any discrimination" in the Mormon Church. Let's us do what the Saviour has said. "To love one another." and truly that will "help the world" a peaceful place to live. This is the bottomline: Wherefore we must press forward with steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, is ye shall press forward feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold thus saith the Father: ye shall have eternal life (BOM–2 Ne 31:20). The word "feasting upon the word of Christ" is undeniably a significant principle to follow for those–who truly believe in Christ. The tone does not make any refference of any racial color: white, black , brown, yellow or red. We are all Heavely Father Children. Have a delightful day.

Dale E: See you didn't read my entries before you went and embarrassed yourself, did you? Sorry Dale E, no points this round, thanks for playing.

David, David, David: Do you actually read anything before you start spouting off your opinions via your keyboard? So quick to type, before you know what your saying. Try typing this: C L U E L E S S. Like the X-Files, the answer is out there – but it aint coming to you kid, you got to go to it.

In reply to those you commented on my post, those 2 quotes were from LDS "Apostles" in 1954 and 1966

They were posted here by a LDS member. Here they are as posted.

"Those who were less valiant in the pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. This inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord’s doing based on His eternal laws of justice.”
Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, 1966

"Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. Think of the Negro, In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant but he will get celestial glory.” (The celestial kingdom is what Mormons believe to be the highest degree of heaven.)
Mormon Apostle Mark E. Petersen,1954

As I said, these quotes speak for themselves....

Many LDS members took issue in this fourm that the quotes were not credited, well there are the original quotes with credits.

Some readers also implied that these quotes were my feelings about the subject, they are not. I was simply showing how bigoted and appaling the teachings of the LDS was back when Mr Rommey was growing up as a LDS member.

and as I said... "Good luck with that America"
Meaning that this country needs men and women with good hearts and strong minds to lead it forward... not leaders who "pray" and are directed by "God" or "Gods teachings".

To "pray" is to wish, to listen to "God" is hearing voices, to follow "Gods Teachings" is to follow the writings of simpleminded ordinary men who said they heard "Gods Voice"...

Is it any wonder that so much of yesterdays and todays history is littered with the dead and oppressed due to "God", "Gods Teachings" and those who pray?

The founders of this country got it right.
Belive whatever you want, just keep it to yourself and never impose your religon or beliefs on others...

If only we would be true to that standard.

Cherry, you're confusing "New and Ever Lasting Covenant of Marriage" and "Plural Marriage". As most non-members and frankly even some Mormons do.

"The New and Ever Lasting Covenant of Marriage" is in a nut shell; The belief that Marriage is intended to endure beyond the grave. That it is in fact, when appropriately administered and then maintained by a loving and devoted couple (man and woman), ever lasting.

"Plural Marriage" was an acceptable practice within The New and Ever Lasting Covenant of Marriage. A family that included plural wives could have that relationship last forever. And if you will take a look at Old Testiment, New Testiment and Mormon history and the parallels between them, you might come to understand why it was permitted

It might also interest you to know that never at any time in LDS history did more than 3% of Latter-day Saints practice Plural Marriage (Ref: Encyclopedia Britanica). It was never doctrine that a man had to have more than one wife in order to get to heaven. If it was then that percentage would have been more like 80 or 90%.

So one is a part of the other, but neither concept is mutually exclusive or inclusive of the other.

Who cares if Romney is a Mormon? He said he marched with MLK, oh wait, he did not. He said he is a long time hunter, oh wait, he is not. He said, oh wait, it does not matter because he is prolific liar, that is what matters. If we get the choice of Romney or Clinton for president we can call it the battle of the liars.

The Book of Mormon was written under the assumption that those who read it would be educated in literature and symbolism. White traditionally means pure, sacred, and clean. To say that a Mary was white is to say that she was pure, sacred, and clean.

Does it really matter if Mormons believe that God has multiple wives? How does a belief such as this qualify or disqualify a candidate for the office of President? It doesn't unless you are a close minded bigot that refuses to support someone with ideas that are unfathomable to you.

Mormons are clearly not racist- That is why they spend millions of dollars in sending thousands of missionaries to Africa, Asia, Europe, and Latin America.

Annette,
Don't be to brash or your husband may not call you from the grave!

I watch CNN and MSNBC and occasionally Fox. Could any of the reporters get enough ambition to actually cover the issues in depth and get away from "he said,she said". It's like electing a Jr. High class officer, not the President of the United States Can't you do better than this?

TO: Peace
RE: Tranquility in Utah

As Salaam Alaikum. Sir, if everything in Utah is ideal for yourself, does that means everyone of African descend will have the same experience as you? What are your complaints with person who believe you are less than them? Why do we try to separate ourselves when it is convenient to the individual? Yes, I image the majority are as you described but if they take no issue with falsehoods – are not they as guilty as the worst? Indifference breeds intolerance so respectfully, next time you support something that is against the majority of persons that look like you – just maybe you should challenge their beliefs in private. Therefore, we can learn something from your experience so we can be one in the same?
As Salaam Alaikum

I have found the Mormons to be just as John F. Kennedy said in this short video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CHSVC2nAl8

The Mormons opened their homes and took many in during the California wildfires and put in countless hours helping the people of Louisiana, Florida and Texas recover from the hurricanes and floods in the last few years. They are the most Christian of neighbors I know.

I have been a member of the LDS church for many years and attended consistenty when I lived in Argentina, Brazil and West Africa. Our congregations in Brazil and Ghana were mostly black, as they are in some parts of the southern US states. These members understand that the LDS are accepting of all races, just ask them. When there are a black members with 40 years of faithfull service to members in the church I expect to see black apostles.

When other churches split, segregated or voted to allow blacks to join their congregation, the LDS church leaders were praying for the approval to extend their priesthood leadership to the black members. This answer came in the 1970's and the priesthood was extended to all worthy men in the 1970's.

These leaders don't take home commissions for new members or receive millions like many other "religious" leaders. Membership is for the benefit of the member, the leader's motives are pure as they only serve to benefit others.

As most LDS trace their ancestry to Sweden, Denmark, England, Hawaii, Tonga, etc. there are not many blacks that made the trip to Utah/Idaho/Wyoming in the late 1800's....those states are almost all white but that is slowly changing. I will welcome a black LDS apostle, a black prophet, when the Lord appoints it.

A candidate's religious belief or non-belief doesn't matter much to me, but their ability to make good decisions does.

Mitt Romney is not an LDS church leader although he has served faithfully in the past and surely will again after his work as a political leader.

When the election dust settles, and as a matter of personal importance, I suggest you research this religion and ask God in prayer if the LDS leaders are inspired by God. It is through the LDS faith that I believe in Christ, his atonement in Gethsemane and on the cross and the reality of the resurrection of every person on this earth....this is truly the "good news".

Where's the bigotry? Romney wants to drag his faith into the spotlight - but wants to control the conversation? I don't think so. It's all fair game. I am neither Republican nor Democrat, and I am not a believer of any religious faith. So I have no dog in this particular fight. But if Romney and Huckabee want to brandish their particular flaming swords, then they best be prepared to do more than just wag them around for effect.

One more thing:

I was born in SC and my father’s line goes as far back as the Revolutionary War in the Greenville/Spartanburg area. And I say that SC Republicans should be outraged that someone thinks they can be so easily manipulated!

I also don't think that it came from any candidate; possibly a supporter of some sort who is desperate or wants publicity.
I think that the scripture is very interesting as well as the history of the Mormon faith. A great movie to check out on the history of Mormonism is "September Dawn."

Big Deal – Is there any religion that isnt seriously flawed?

The slanderous card is like saying "Superman is stupid, and Spiderman is the best." – ALL FICTION people – one make-beleive god isnt any better than another make believe god.

Adam, you seem to think that anything uttered by any Mormon leader at anytime in its past is by default doctrine. The development of "official LDS doctrine" is a much more involved and refined process than that. Additionally, if that same standard were to be applied to every other Christian denomination they would have faded out of exsistence long ago. Please consider this before you embarass yourself again.

Dale E, as much as I appreciate the candor of most of your dialog with Lori, you too are endanger of picking out topics that may have been previously discussed by Mormon leaders but are not in fact Doctrine. Mormons believe that families can be together forever, but neither the husband nor the wife is ultimately responsible for the decision of when or if a person gets resurrected. That judgment is left to God alone to implement. The same is true of God having multiple spirit wives. Sure it has been a matter of discussion in the past, but it isn't DOCTRINE, for two reasons, 1) Frankly we just don't know, he might, he might not – it wouldn't make him any less GOD either way. 2)The knowledge isn't necessary for our salvation.

What really kind of angers me is the fact that a lot of the bloggers here, for some reason, believe the LDS Church is this nebulus secretive organization. When nothing could be further from the truth. How do you guys think those who sent this stupid card and folks like Adam get the junk they regurgitate. The Church makes the information available – duh. There isn't a group of secret geeky religion dectectives digging through dusty libraries or dank musty back rooms coming up with this stuff. Nope, the LDS Church makes it available – becuase they have nothing to hide. But still that doesn't automatically make it LDS DOCTRINE.

What confuses me is why Romney would want to be the nominee for a party that seems to hate him so much for his religious beliefs.

marylou's comment ticked me off that I must add this: She said LDS women are, "Women are second class baby machines in the Mormon faith". Wow, my husband thinks otherwise! I'm the "boss" in the home, his job is to bring the paycheck to me. LOL

It is Huckabee's belief that women should submit to their man, not the LDS faith. We believe man and women ARE equal.

Whoever produced and distributed this deceptive card apparently thinks that a "temple" is the same thing as a congregation. That is not the case. A temple is a specially dedicated building where Mormons enter into sacred covenants with God. Temples are open only to Mormons who have been interviewed by their bishop and stake presidency and found to be committed, worthy, and living the standards of the church. Anyone not holding a temple recommend is not allowed to enter a Mormon temple, including Mormons who do not have temple recommends.

On the other hand, a chapel is where Mormon congregations meet for their weekly meetings. Chapels are open to anyone, whether they are Mormon or members of other faiths, or people of no particular faith.

This ridiculous misunderstanding on the meaning of the word "temple" reminds me of a Jeopardy question [make that "answer"] I saw on a show many years ago. I don't remember the exact wording, but the gist was that the Mormon church had several million members worldwide but only 13 temples. Where did they think we met for our church meetings - in someone's garage? [And by the way, we now have well over 100 temples worldwide.]

And it just proves that the card was not put out by anyone who knows much about the Mormon church.

Dale E said:

"I don't know of one Bible verse that can be translated as God having spirit wives (plural) or that a man determines if his wife will be raised from the grave. If there is a verse in the bible that speaks to either of these Mormon beliefs I would like to know."

I know I'm not Lori, but I am a Mormon. I also don't know of any Bible verses that speak of either of those beliefs. Good thing they are not Mormon beliefs. I'm not sure where you learned what Mormons believe, but it probably wasn't a Mormon.

Go to lds.org or mormon.org and search through our scriptures and doctrines. I would be impressed if you could find any evidence to support those "Mormon Doctrines". Just because you read something on the internet or hear it at a Baptist Bible Camp, doesn't make it true.

JFK Praised the Mormons in 1963.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CHSVC2nAl8

Why are we still dealing with this bigotry?

Hmmm...I should have said that the quote is accurate (mb).

Also, what Dale E wrote about husbands determining the resurrection of their wives was also taught in religion classes although I could not tell you the LDS source for their belief in that regard and none of my profs (including the illustrious Joseph Fielding McConkie) could refer me to a Bible or BOM verse.

The source of the Orson Pratt quote is page 172-173 in Mr. Pratt's publication, The Seer. On the same pages is the interesting revelation that Jesus, too, was a polygamist, which the "DaVinci Code" followers will find fascinating. A scan of The Seer is available at lib.byu.edu. The quote is accurate as is the quote from The Book of Mormon.

Whoever sent this should not have indicated that it came from the Romney family and was sponsored by the Boston Temple. That part was wrong. However, I don't really see the problem with putting out the direct quotes from LDS scripture and a reliable secondary source.

I graduated from BYU and took the required fourteen units in LDS religion. We were clearly taught that one could not go to the highest heaven without accepting (not necessarily practicing) polygamy. The quote about people of African ancestry is correct, but as others have said, there was a press release (not a revelation) indicating that the LDS religion would no longer discriminate on admission to the temple endowment and marriage ceremony and on admitting African-ancestry males to the priesthood. The source Adam's quote is a speech called Race Problems as They Affect the Church by Mark E. Petersen, which was given and published in 1954.

Overall, I have respect for the LDS I knew. I did, however, see a preference toward those of Anglo-Saxon ancestry. I am a Republican, and I do have a concern that Romney will be biased toward those of Anglo-Saxon ancestry in cabinet appointments, etc.

oh, of course, it always comes down to this and not one's political acumen. This is getting too ridiculous.

I am not sure why you brought the Jews into this. But the controversy, duh, is that these are religious views that Romney holds. Mormonism is not Christian, no mater what kind of spin any of you put on it. My Bible says one faith, one God, one baptism. The Mormons claim Jesus did not die on the cross. My Bible says differently. And because these doctrines are contrary to traditional Christian belief, many people who identify themselves as Christian will not vote for a Mormon. For the record, people are sworn into office by the Bible because that Book is the religious standard in America, always has been and assumably always will be.

Regarding the phrase that Mormons claim that Jesus did not die on the Cross.
Pure lies. They do believe Jesus Christ died on the Cross. If he had not done so none of us would be here today. Iraelis sacrificed animal in similitude of the future sacrifice of Jesus to redeem all mankind from their sins.
True Mormons do not put crosses on their Church buildings because they worship a resurrected Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church and runs the Church and owns it lock stock and barrel.
Mormons are Christians in the sense that the early Christens were Christians. In the sense that you call yourself a Christians i would agree with you.

I guess the question that few of you address is who actually sent the card. Do we know who that was? Do we know who designed it? The item to note is about the wording; was it translated from another language? What were the verses before and after? What was the context and the relavence of the color? To some people, white can be something pure and wholesome like Ivory soap. To have a full understanding requires more than just the card.

Unfortunately the issue of racial overtones to the LDS faith will continue to be brought up throughout the campaign, as it always has been and remains a prevailing theme of the Book of Mormon.

A number of years ago (it was in 1978 – Lord, I feel old!), the LDS Church reversed a long-standing policy of discrimination toward African-Americans that precluded them from being eligible to hold an office in the LDS priesthood. This policy had been in effect and rigidly enforced for a hundred and forty-four years, ever since the church’s founding in 1830. In what amounted to a revolutionary about-face, the LDS leaders announced that all of their teachings and understandings of the matter prior to that day in 1978 “had been wrong,” that they had “misunderstood” both doctrine as they had been teaching it and scripture as they had been reading it, and that they could no longer find any basis for denying their priesthood to “any eligible male member, regardless of race.”

This was a great moral step on behalf of the Mormon leaders at the time, and it was (and is still to be) applauded. It was certainly the right thing for them to do. But… in the aftermath of this long-awaited change of heart, very few outside observers ever asked the obvious question: Just where had such a discriminatory policy that had colored their thinking for so long ever come from in the first place? And, more importantly, were the seeds of such a repulsive idea still a part of compulsory Mormon belief?

Prior to 1978, Mormon writers and thinkers all used statements, pronouncements, and teachings from earlier church leaders to “prove” that the “Negro” was descended from “the race of Cain” in the belief that the “mark” that God had placed on Cain in the Old Testament was the “curse” of a black skin. Not surprisingly, this was also a widespread and fairly common belief in the segregationist, slavery-tolerating American culture that existed during the early part of the 1800s, when Mormonism was born. While there is certainly nothing Biblical about such an offensive teaching, this didn’t stop a good many preachers of the day from offering it as their own interpretation and proclaiming it from pulpits all across a young America.

Joseph Smith, Mormonism’s founder, would later echo the idea of the Negro race bearing Cain’s curse after his church had been established and began to grow, and Brigham Young and others would later deliver some of the most bigoted and racist remarks from the pulpit of the LDS Tabernacle that have ever been uttered by anyone, anywhere. But even before that, the concept that dark skin was a “curse” from God, and light skin was a “blessing” from God, was incorporated by Smith into the pages of the Book of Mormon.

This is a critical point. I won’t take up the space to quote passage and verse, but anyone can easily verify what I’m saying here just by going to any search engine and entering the words: Mormon, Indian, skin, white. The gist of the story, though, goes like this:

In the story line of the Book of Mormon, the ancestors of modern-day Native Americans (and Latinos) are called Lamanites. They were originally light-skinned, but the book states that because they were unrighteous, God “cursed” them with a “dark and loathsome skin” so that the rest of God’s light-skinned, righteous people would not be tempted to “mingle amongst them.” But of course that wasn’t the end of it. God then gives these cursed people a promise: The Book of Mormon tells them that if their descendents become righteous (presumably by converting to Mormonism), God will remove this curse and their skin will once again become “light and delightsome.”

In other words, early 19th century American racial attitudes are given scriptural authority by Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, and God himself is portrayed as being a racist who “curses” people by giving them dark skin and “blesses” people by giving them light skin, and who favors segregation. This repugnant idea – that the ancestors of Native Americans were cursed with their skin color, but their descendants are promised that they will one day (by the grace of God, if they convert) become white, forms a core belief of Mormonism even today, in spite of the reversal of discrimination towards African Americans.

The vast majority of the many Mormons I know are not racists, and I certainly do not see them as such. Most Mormons, in fact, make an extremely conscientious effort to be as open-minded and accepting of diversity as they possibly can, and they are to be admired as a people for this. But their belief system and scriptural writings still proclaim and teach that God approves of racism by “cursing” with dark skin and “blessing” with light skin. And to people like myself, this is reason enough to not lend credibility to such an organization by offering one of its members the office of President of the United States.

Once again , someone, or some anti-mormon campaign is at it again. Why are we even discussing this non-sense? Romneys faith should have nothing to do with him being able to run the country. Bill Clinton is a "Christian" and we all know how well that turned out. Surely, Romney can bring family values back to the White House. Huckabee is the one using religion as a weapon! He wears it on his sleeve like a medal. He is so busy running for pastor in chief that he hasn;t figured out that he cannot win the national election. He does not stand a chance against the Democrats in 2008. Romney is going to win in IA, NH, and MI! Romney has my vote, because he is the only one who can get the job done. Go Romney!

Anyone familiar with the Book of Mormon and mormon theology would know that these quotes have been taken completely out of context. The Book of Mormon (as well as the Bible) clearly teach that God looks on the soul rather than the color of skin, and that we should too. It's amazing how little most people understand about a major US religion.

I'm black and muslim. I've lived in Salt Lake City for years; I did my PhD there. I have never been victim of racism related to religion. I met wonderful people who are smart, hardworking and dedicative to their family.

Lori,
There are many different denominations under the "Christian" umbrella... you are correct. However the doctrine taught in a great majority (I don't know about every single denomination) of these religions have doctrine that can be traced to the Bible/Christ.
I don't know of one Bible verse that can be translated as God having spirit wives (plural) or that a man determines if his wife will be raised from the grave. If there is a verse in the bible that speaks to either of these Mormon beliefs I would like to know.

ADAM, THANK YOU – NOW I KNOW I CAN HAVE THE CHANCE TO BE A SERVANT? THOSE WHO WERE LESS VALIANT IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE? THE PRE-EXISTENCE, OKAY. WHERE ARE CHRISTIANITY ROOTS? WHY ARE CAUCASIANS CALLED CAUCASIANS? WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR FACTS? WHAT DID GREGOR MENDEL CLAIM IN BIOLOGY? THE RECESSIVE TO DOMINANT GENE? WHERE WAS CAUCASIANS PRE-EXISTENCE LOGGED? SPEAKS FOR ITSELF OR DOES THAT SPEAK FOR ADAM? GOOD LUCK WITH THAT AMERICA? AMERICA CAN DEAL WITH LIES – NOW LET US TRY TO DEAL WITH THE TRUTH? NOT ADAM'S TRUTH BECAUSE ADAM BELIEVES INEQUALITY IS NOT OF MAN'S ORIGIN. IT IS THE LORD'S DOING BASED ON HIS ETERNAL LAWS OF JUSTICE? YET THE LORD INSTRUCTS US TO LOVE OUR ENEMY. THEREFORE, I WILL LOVE FOR ADAM TO GET THE TRUTH SO HE CAN SPEAK FOR ITSELF...GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ADAM. BY THE WAY, HAPPY NEW YEAR

To Adam.

The quote does not speak fo itself. You do not provide a source of who said it that can be checked. The Mormon Church teachings are contrary to this quote. It is quite possible that it was said by a Mormon who had some racist ideas, but this by no means suggests all Mormomons are racist.

A closer look at the quote:

The terms "pre-existent" and "pre-exitence" are similar but not actually used in Mormon jargon at all. The closest term is the extremely rare "preexsist" and I can only find it from two professors (Hugh Nibley of BYU and R. Collin Mangrum, a professor of law at Creighton University) and not any general Chruch leaders. Searching the same database has 618 hits for the accurate terminology "premortal", "premortality" or "premortally".

The quote is dubious at best and I would like a citatation of where it comes from.

Dale E

We're not trying to say we're the '"same as Christians". We are Christians. It doesn't mean all our doctrine has to be the same as anyone else's. And with approximately 2000 different denominations in our country, no one has the same doctrine anyway, everyone is different. Having the same doctrine as you does not qualify or dis-qualify us a Christian. Who we believe in does. And since the LDS (Mormons) absolutely believe in Jesus Christ as their one and only personal Savior, we are Christians.

We're not shy about anything we believe in either. You can answer any question, check any rumor, verify any "belief" we have at http://www.lds.org

For anyone who is really interested, you won't get real info off of blogs or from anti-Mormon folks, or competative preachers with an agenda. Go to the real source if you really want to know about Americas fourth largest and fastest-growing religion.

We are very Christian, the "not Christians" label was designed to prejudice you and convince you not to look in the first place – by some top brass at some major American religious institutions in the South, (not coincidently the home of the KKK). And it has grown from there. They are also the group that continues to breathe life in the "not Christian" label. It's a lie, always has been.

Adam,

What year is your "negro" quote? The Southern Baptist Convention, the second largest religion in America took until 1995 to repeal in writing the statements in their creed that blacks were inferior. It was called the "Repentance Creed".

And who is your quote from? Is it scripture? Nope. You cite neither author or date. So it didn't speak for itself nor you.

I find it curious that others write of 'religious bigotry' being shown here. I hate to be the one to burst a bubble here, but religion IS bigotry. What religion doesn't preach that theirs is the one true religion? Read the Bible (especially the old testament), the Koran, or the Book of Mormon. They all contain a good deal of hate-mongering. Let's face it, if we actually followed the Bible's, Koran's, or Book of Mormon's ethics, we would still have slavery, gross gender inequality, and mass murder. Luckily most of us AREN'T good Christians, LDS, or Islamists. Thankfully most of us have never actually read the entire Bible or if we have, we have chosen to judiciously ignore large chunks of it (mostly because you would go to prison for a long time if you actually followed much of the teaching in it literally). You should be very afraid of anyone who claims to be a "good Christian". The best argument for atheism is a deep read of ANY of these "good" books. One could have easily picked hundreds of Biblical quotes from the Old Testament that were more bigoted, sadistic, or vile than quotes from the book of Mormon. Perhaps these should be mailed out in Arkansas. One would be well served to vote based on a candidate's LACK of religious belief rather than because of it or irrespective of it. There are more atheists in the United States than most people realize-and we vote too.

"Think of the Negro, In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant..."

"Those who were less valiant in the pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. This inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord’s doing based on His eternal laws of justice.”

Speaks for itself..

Good Luck with that America.

If Mr Romney did such a good job as governor of Massachusetts, why did his lieutenant governor lose so badly to a Democrat in the election to replace him?
All she needed to do was promise to continue his policies and the satisfied voters would have elected her to continue his work.
They must have been disgusted with his record in office to replace him with Deval Patrick, a man whose dark skin identifies him as 'wicked', according to the Mormons.
Why have none of the newspapers in NH, which borders Massachusetts, endorsed him? Don't his neighbors in NH know if Romney was a good governor? They watched him for four years, and all agree that he's not qualified to be president.
As for the Mormon Christmas Cards, I think that everyone should read some of the Book of Mormon and ask themselves: Does he really believe this stuff? If he does, can he possibly be qualified to lead the USA?

Some of the above commenters have noted that the Book of Mormon and Orson Pratt quotes on the card may be correct quotes and ask why would anyone be offended?

First, whoever sent this card credited "The Romney Family" and said it was paid for by "The Boston Massachusetts Temple." We don't know who actually sent this card but I am 100% sure it was not paid for by the Boston Temple and 99.99% sure that no one in the Romney family was involved. That deception is offensive.

Second, linking a card sent by "The Romney Family" with funds contributed by the Boston Temple creates a false idea that Governor Romney is receiving financial report for his election from the sacred funds of the LDS church. Again, this is false and offensive.

Third, the scripture from the book of Nephi highlights the description of Mary as "Fair and White." My perception is that the sender intends to insinuate a racist agenda in the Mormon church which would, I guess, by default carry over to Mitt Romney's personal views and then his politics. This is offensive because A) the Mormon church since 1978 has taught and supported racial equality and tolerance; B) Mitt Romney has shown racial tolerance and a commitment to equal rights in his entire personal life and political career. Having someone insuinate that you're racist is offensive, especially if you're not.

Fourth, the quote from early LDS Apostle Orson Pratt says that God the Father had a plurality of wives because he had a spiritual wife with whom he created all his spiritual children then miraculously created a physical child with the virgin Mary. I'm not sure what the intended purpose of this quote is. Maybe it is to suggest that modern Mormon are still secretly polygamist so a president Romney would do something crazy like make polygamy legal? Maybe it is to suggest (correctly) that Mormons believe polygamy has at times been approved by God and by association then suggest (incorrectly) that Mormon men believe in taking underage wives, mistreatment of women, and the other negative ideas that have become associated with modern polygamy in the American psyche. This is offensive because Mitt Romney is a faithful family man. He is comitted to his ONE wife and his large family. His family is comitted to him and to his campaign. I believe he is one of the strongest candidates in the Family Values department. Again, whatever the sender of this card intended to suggest with this quote is false.

I do not support Mitt Romney for President. I welcome a frank discussion of his experience and past failures. Governor Romney has been very critical of his opponents but has stuck to facts regarding his opponent's past record.

I am Mormon. I'm also Christian. When I stumbled on this article I was listening to "Jeremy Camp" on I-Tunes. Now it's on "Third Day." I am personally offended by the anyone who knows that I believe in the same God they do and in the same Savior Jesus Christ but willfully misinterpret my beliefs and the beliefs of Mormons in general through propaganda such as this card. They create a environment of fear and misunderstanding and only tear apart the unity of faith that should characterize American Christians on the important value issues.

I believe those who sent this card are less concerned about Mitt Romney's ability to govern America and more concerned about how the world thinks of Mormonism. They are afraid that Romney's campaign, especially if successful, could give Mormonism positive exposure that could assist missionary efforts.

On a side note, to those who say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were racist because they didn't allow blacks to hold the priesthood until the mid-70s, please note that until 1995 the SBC (Southern-Baptist Convention), the religion that Mike Huckabee practices, did not apologize or formally recognize that the SBC separated from the other Baptist churches in the US over the issue of keeping slaves. I am not nocking Mr. Huckabee about this because he was not the one running the SBC at that time. Nor do I blame Mr. Romney for the time it took the LDS church to change as he was not over the LDS church at that time. I am just saying that generally God works through us rather than mandating things, and some things take time for people to change. Note that a vision was required to change Saul's perspective on Christians and Peter's perspective on gentiles, and that was only 2 people, not millions of people. So, lets note that all religions have had times that in retrospect we wonder what they were thinking and move on to the actual issues that we should worry about and which candidate is the most qualified to handle them.

"White" need not refer to skin color, as is clear from the following passages from the biblical book of Daniel: "And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed (Daniel 11:35). "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand (Daniel 12:10). In both of these passages, the meaning of the word "white" is most obviously pure; to "make white" is to purify. For complete text. http://jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQRace.shtml

Obviously Marry was not Anglo, she was Jewish. Of course, comparatively speaking, in any race there are those with darker skin than others of the same race. If, in this context, it was refering to color then it would have been only in comparison with the people of that same race.

However, I don't think that is what it was trying to portray. Many times white is in reference to pure. As in Isaiah, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" (Isa 1:18).

Orson Pratt did not make the statement printed on this card. Anyone who can give a citation will only get it from a false enemy source of another piece of anti-Mormon writing. I am surprised that nobody in these comments has challenged this undocumentable Orson Pratt "quote" yet. Source please ... by anyone. It would not surprise me if the source of this mis-quote actaully narrows down who it came from if the FBI decides to Sherlock the case. It is not from the authentic Mormon teachings which I can search numbering in the thousands.

How is it that people think Mormonism is an obscure or secretive religion. It is the fourth largest in America and the memebers spend tremendous time and resources sharing what they believe.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#bodies has this information about half-way down:

Rank Religious Body Year Membership

1 Catholic Church 2002 66,407,105
2 Southern Baptist Convention 2003 16,400,000
3 United Methodist Church 2002 8,251,042
4 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2004 5,599,177
5 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 2003 4,984,925
6 Church of God in Christ 1991 4,500,000
7 Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2001 3,595,259
8 National Baptist Convention of America 1987 3,500,000
9 Assemblies of God 2002 2,687,366
10 Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod 2003 2,512,714

Here is another source of updated information with the same conclusion:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/general-u-s/176606-25-largest-churches-united-states-2006-a.html

Most criticism of Romney for "flip flopping" is due to his willingness to admit where he has been wrong in the past. He is proving to be very human in this respect and someone I hope all of us can relate to.

BTW – Jesus Christ of the Bible is proclaimed as the Savior of every Mormon (and their honest non-Mormon friends). There is no other Name, never has been nor ever will be from any true Mormon.

He did die on the cross for us. Anyone who thinks Mormons do not believe this must be confused by the fact that we also know He rose from the dead on the third day and is alive in the sense that He never laid that body down again. He never will die again. Jesus Christ is no longer dead though death was the certain effect of the cross on Him.

One other point about the card that is almost humorous if it was not in such poor taste. Orson Pratt was never claimed by Mormons to be an "original member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles". This is sloppy work as ususal for anti-Mormon pieces. The original Twelve Apostles can be found in Matthew 10:2-4. Orson Pratt did not become an Apostle of Jesus Christ for about another 1800 years.

Now that I look a little closer, I discover that the all-capital block font chosen for this card is a font that is probably copyrighted by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. – The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or a fairly close counterfeit). This font is protected for use in the official Church logo. Compare for yourself at http://www.lds.org

The scripted font on the card is not one of my normal Microsoft Word choices. If anyone recognizes it, please post the font name and source. Same curiosity about the Angel Moroni image on the card. I have not seen this one and don't find it with an image Google.

To my knowledge, the Mormon church has been wonderful to their black members. It is true they waited for an answer to prayer before bringing black men into the service of the priesthood, while other churches just voted for change or segregated their congregations.

In Brazil there are more than a million Mormons, the majority are black. The church is also expanding greatly in Africa. It seems Gladys Knight and the other nearly million black members have come to comfortable terms with the history of this religion and the fair treatment of all races...Mitt is comfortable with it....I am comfortable with it!

This is the information age. It is much different than eight years ago when you could get away with cooking up a bunch of lies.

This post card will have no influence on SC republicans.

I just watched a Mitt Romney ad and he comes across as a flip flopper.

He said he was proud that he switched over to being pro life.

People in SC want to know where you stand. They don't like someone riding the fence or saying what they think you want to hear.

They also believe in family values.

Some misguided follower of some other GOP candidate is the logical culprit - almost certainly without the knowledge of that other candidate. It won't be fair to that candidate when/if the culprit is discovered.

The LDS has undeniably squirrelly roots (no matter what these impressively coordinated LDS posters have to say about it). But so does the Southern Baptist denomination, which was created during the split between the Northern and Southern states in the Civil War era - in other words, a split occurred with other Baptists over slavery and related issues. (The SBC recently apologized for its past condoning of slavery.) The Anglican/Episcopal church was created so that a British king could have the annulment the Catholic Church wouldn't grant to him. I doubt any church has had a perfectly impressive beginning. But I also doubt any follower truly harbors that tainted past in his or her heart. It's safe to say these churches today are full of sincere people doing good in the world.

Ironically, a large number of the Founding Fathers embraced an alternate faith to Christianity. They lived their lives by this faith and anchored our nation's foundational documents to its principles. Today that church goes by the name Unitarian Universalist. The UUs are a heretical variant to Christianity because, as the name suggests, they do not embrace the Trinitarian (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) concept of the Deity. Off and on over the years, of course, UUs have been persecuted for this difference. But then and now UUs celebrate and embrace their differences rather than seeking to establish dogma or build fences. People with amazingly divergent beliefs come together under the UU umbrella to worship in their own ways and support others in their ways.

This practice is what "freedom of religion" was intended to be, is it not? What would our Founding Fathers say about us, as we apply religious litmus tests to our candidates?

It's not likely you'll see a presidential candidate give a speech on his/her UU faith anytime soon. It's not likely you'll see UUs launching a media-savvy PR campaign (or, for that matter, coming under Congressional scrutiny for shady finances). No UU minister is likely to publish a God-wants-you-to-be-rich bestseller. But without this church, the religious and political landscape around you would look very different indeed.

If you want to know more about the religious roots of this nation, go to http://www.uua.org

This is sickening, both for Romeny's sake and for members of the Mormon church. An attack like this is one destructive to the minds and opinions of those who would vote fairly and view other religions with an unbiased approach had they not received that deceptive postcard.

Todd,

I like your point of view.

Wouldn't it be ironic if some faction of some evangelical church started saying, you're not 'religion x' because only those who go to preacher joe's sermons are 'religion x', so you are actually only (religion x)/2

As an aside, isn't it contradictory to state that because The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints has differing doctrines around deity than a given Evangelical denomination, that it's followers aren't Christian, but to then somehow equate the Christianity of any Evangelical follower with any Catholic follower when the latter openly worships through prayer their 'Saints' and the Mother Mary???

Mitt Romney will bring the dangerous, strange and cultish Mormon "religion" into the White House and lead this country to ruin. I personally attended a Mormon funeral and heard a "Bishop" preach a sermon on Mormon theology. Guess what: it is couched in Christian language but it is not Christian. Women are second class baby machines in the Mormon faith. Gays and lesbians are hated and rejected. Is this what you want in the White House? Wake up America!

Bush probably did it. His cronies did something similar to McCain during the 2000 primaries.

Lets be honest there are some fundamental differences between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other Christian churches. Here is a good summery from an LDS point of view of how we see the God head. http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695233910,00.html

Lets have a real discussion about the "Mormon Beliefs" rather than trying to imply that mormons are racist or don't believe in Christ.

One more thing Lori,
One set of belief systems is no better than the other.... I did not intend to make pointing out difference as the same as "bashing" one belief systemas opposed to the other.

Understood Lori,
The point I am making is that even though Christians believe in God of the Old Testament, and the validity of the Old Testament, does not mean Christians are Jewish. Christianity has doctrine that differs from Judaism, there is nothing wrong with either religion... however they are not the same. If you are saying that Mormonism is the same as Christianity.... the why should there even be a Mormon church unless there is "different" doctorine?

I still feel that Mormons should shout their beliefs from the rooftops so they don't feel persecuted when others state some of their beliefs.

To the racism charge; aren't any of you Mormon-bashers old enough to remember when Protestant churches were saying the same thing? Half the churches in this country were strongly and proudly racist until the sixties. Slavery and segregation both leaned heavily on the Bible and religion to justify themselves.

In the sixties and seventies, those churches changed, and so did the Mormons. Why the hell are we still obsessing on them for a crime that virtually every denomination was guilty of? Judge not lest ye be judged, because there's plenty of blame to go around.

In the Summer, the whispering bigoted campaign swirling around the Huckster's campaign was anti-Catholic to get rid of his prime oponent for top of the second tier, Sen Brownback...

In the Winter, the bigots swirling around Iowa (and now S. Carolina) with false innuendos and half-truths are again near the Huckster. His rise in the polls started the day that the bigoted anti-Romney push polls started.

Which sect of the Christian faith will he attack in the Spring? In the Fall?

This bigot must be stopped.

He can't argue on his record, because, as we have seen recently, when people learn the truth about the Huckster, nobody can believe that he pardoned a dozen murderers (convicted by a jury of their peers) and more than 1000+ other convicts...or that he fought to keep sales tax on FOOD...or that he would use those tax dollars to give adult illegal aliens scholarships.

Mitt is Presidential and will be one the best presidents for ALL Americans.

The Huckster will divide us not only politically, but along sectarian lines, as well.

I thought this open bigotry died a slow death in the 1960s...I guess that it has been kept alive and well in Arkansas.

I find it a bit ironic that the fraudulent card would be sent to Republicans in S. Carolina trying to make Romney out to be a racist; the fact is that many of the Republicans in S. Carolina are the children of men who had a lot of white sheets, if you know what I mean.

This is just amazing, its exciting really that we have a chance to talk about this.

But first let me say, that in no way would Romney have conjured up this scheme. If he had it would have been done a lot better than it was. No this was concocted by anti-mormon twits and it is backfiring on them. We may never find out who did this, but we must remember that it is a federal crime to do what they have done. They are simply trying to play on the tired old bigotry against Mormons that the Baptists and Evangelicals tried to foster in the south all through the 70’s and 80’s. Believe it or not, they were using some of the very same tactics back then to deride Mormonism back then that the Mullahs and Imams are using to deride America in the eyes of the Muslim world. I know because I grew up in it. They played on the lack of knowledge and understanding and fostered an “it’s them or us” mentality. It was hideous really.

Now, I never cease to be amazed at how Evangelicals and Southern Baptists like to tell you that Mormons hide their true beliefs and that you really have to dig to get at the truth and that they know what we really believe (trust me most are clueless). Nothing could be further from the truth. The LDS Church is one of the most transparent religious organizations on the planet. We’re so open about things that folks figure we must be hiding something. All you need to know is available for the knowing (this includes temple doctrine), but you will have to put in the effort to learn it. To be honest I am also continually amazed at what most Americans have come to believe about "historical" or “Bible based” Christianity (and this includes you “BlackEvangelical”). Most Americans wouldn’t recognize a 1st Century Christian if one (Paul for instance) was to be standing right in front of them. In fact step outside the U.S. and most Americans wouldn’t recognize an Evangelical or Baptist congregation. What Americans practice today is “Americanized Christianity” or worse yet “Group based Christianity”. Don’t get me wrong, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing – As a Mormon I can appreciate that. But the scriptural interpretations, guiding principles and practices experienced in most American Churches today have evolved only since the 1800’s, some do go as far back as the 1600’s. Catholics of course would claim to go much further back. So do not try and throw the words “Bible believing” or “Historical Christianity” around because they probably don’t mean what you think they mean. A half and hour on the internet does not a Mormon Scholar make.

Lastly, the LDS Church has stood up against more criticism, hatred and violence than any other existing U.S. Christian denomination. It has done so for over 170 years now and still it manages to be one of the fastest growing Christian denominations in the world. So let’s lay off the religious bigotry and get down to discussing fair politics.

Happy New Year

Dale E, you mean to tell me we send out 60,000 missionaries each year to just about every corner of the world and we are trying to be secretive? We've been sending out missionaries since the day our Church was founded. In fact, if you talk to an active member of the Church you'll find you can't get them to shut up! (Actually that's not entirely the case as we do NOT want to shove our beliefs down anyone's throat). There are things we think are sacred though, but there were things so sacred during the time of Christ that they were intentionally left out of the Bible (2 Cor. 12:4).

I agree with you though, we are not the same "type" of Christians as mainstream Christianity, we do have our differences. In fact, based on the responses of many people here who say they are mainstream Christian, I'm GLAD I'm not one of them. Many of these responses are anything but Christ-like. However, you need to realize that in the 177 year history of our church there have been things written about us both from people inside and outside of the church. None of which we consider doctrine or beliefs of the church. Heck, some of the early leaders of the church thought there were people living on the sun. Do we teach that today? Of course not, we've NEVER taught that. You can go to lds.org or mormon.org and find out all about our "crazy doctrine" Just realize, unless it's official, it's not doctrine. We don't claim that our leaders are or ever we infallible like some churches. Can you see the significance of this?

As far as Mitt and the Mormons go, yes we get a little sensitive when our beliefs are completely taken out of context and paraded around, but you must not know the history of our church. If you did, you would know that we are the only church in America that has ever had an Extermination Order issued against us by a sitting Governor. And it wasn't even rescinded until 1975! So basically, up until 1975 you could legally go shoot a Mormon and take their property. So you can imagine why we get a little testy. Believe me though, none of that means that we are uncomfortable talking about our beliefs, you just need to get us in the right situation to do it. Again, ask an active member and they would be glad to explain what our real doctrine is.

You may be interrested in this too:
http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=3594

It's from a non-Mormon historian that I feel really "gets" us – as much as that is possible considering she's not Mormon – but I don't hold that against her one bit! Thanks for putting up with my ramblings. Have a Happy New Year everyone!

By defining Christianity to fit your own view, even mainstream Christians are not Christians by other Christians standards. I've known Baptists that only considered Baptists and some Presbyterians to be Christian. I've known non-denoms who state that only people who accept Christ and are baptized are Christians. I've known people who professed to be Christians, whose actions were not anything that as a Christian I would want associated with Christianity or Christ.

What this all boils down to is this, Mitt Romney is a Mormon. If you are going to base a secular vote only on his religion rather than on who he is as a person then you are not a person that I want voting. The same goes for people who vote for only vote for Romney because he is a Mormon, I don't want these people voting. Obviously they are not willing to take the time to study the different candidates and the issues and do their best to make an informed decision.

Also, a good quote about Mormon church leaders past and present.
"The Catholic church teaches that the pope is infallible and no one believes them, the Mormon church teaches that their leaders are men and subject to human errors and no one believes them either." As pertaining to the Christmas card and the quote, church leaders are allowed to preach what they want over the pulpit, but that does not make it scripture or doctrine. Mitt Romney does not need to say whether he believes what another Mormon believes any more than we need to question Huckabee whether he thinks that Missouri had a good thing going with the Mormon extermination order. Or go back in time and ask JFK if he felt the Inquisition directly resulted in positive outcomes. Heck, ask Rudy why he keeps getting married in a church "till death do us part", when it is more along the lines of "until 5 years till we part".

Religious beliefs are not what being president is about, rather the ability to lead this country in a positive direction. Now go do some research so you can pick a candidate based on things that matter rather than religion, height, or hair style.

Who cares! We all are aware that mormons are members of a large cult. I pray to God that Romney does not become next President.

john mc cain could tell him great stories about his experiences with the famous w. 2 time fraudulent president of jesusland usa

Leave it to the Republicans to attack each other in this manner. What a suprise....

There have been many sub-issues brought forth in this particular forum. Indeed, it was inappropriate and apparently unlawful for someone to forge the Romneys' signatures on greeting cards without their knowledge or approval; were I in their position, I would undoubtedly feel equally infuriated. But I think what is truly bothering Mormons-and thus the Romneys- is that their beliefs have been unsheathed in such a public and embarrassing way in South Carolina. Mormons are well aware that their beliefs are not by any means aligned with traditional, historically sound aspects of the Christian faith. Content with that, Mormons have always shown a tendency to appear very charismatic, emphasizing the things in which they have in common with other Christians, which are very few, thus downplaying the alarming differences in doctrinal theory that seperate us. The fact of the matter is, according to Biblical standards, Mormonism is a cult. Which means Romney is a cultist. I will not vote for him. Religion aside, I do not agree with his often waffling view of governing. We need consistency and integrity in the White House, something that's been missing for quite some time.

People who condemn anothers religion, IS NOT A CHRISTIAN!

Lori, yes you are correct. I'm amazed that people don't spend more time reading the Bible, there are MANY references in the New Testament where it reads that Christ and God are individuals...

Of course the Mormons see the Virgin Mary as fair and white. Does anyone know any black mormons?

Is it just me or do these anti-Mormon/Romney things actualy help him? look at all the media Romney gets from this.

First of all, Mormon temples do not pay for Christmas cards. Secondly, this is anti-Mormon work at its best! The timing is critical as his opponents well know.

I would not be surprised if Huckabee or his Huckabots are behind this. It is extremely hateful, and it is well known that Huckabee and much of the Christian right are hateful towards the Mormon church. I don't know why. Mormons are some of the nicest people you will ever meet. They are moral, family oriented, hard working, and honest. Even more importantly, they don't go around attacking other people's religion. I'm sure everyone knows by now that Huckabee was the key note speaker at an anti-Mormon rally in '98. Can you imagine? Why this man has not been made to answer to his bigotry is beyond me.

I bet you won't find Romney inserting little jabs about Huckabee's Southern Baptist religion. He sticks to the facts of Huckabee's appalling record. Huckabee and his followers can only answer back with religious bigotry.

My vote goes to Mitt Romney.

Dale E, you mean to tell me we send out 60,000 missionaries each year to just about every corner of the world and we are trying to be secretive? We've been sending out missionaries since the day our Church was founded. In fact, if you talk to an active member of the Church you'll find you can't get them to shut up! (Actually that's not entirely the case as we do NOT want to shove our beliefs down anyone's throat). There are things we think are sacred though, but there were things so sacred during the time of Christ that they were intentionally left out of the Bible (2 Cor. 12:4).

I agree with you though, we are not the same "type" of Christians as mainstream Christianity, we do have our differences. In fact, based on the responses of many people here who say they are mainstream Christian, I'm GLAD I'm not one of them. Many of these responses are anything but Christ-like. However, you need to realize that in the 177 year history of our church there have been things written about us both from people inside and outside of the church. None of which we consider doctrine or beliefs of the church. Heck, some of the early leaders of the church thought there were people living on the sun. Do we teach that today? Of course not, we've NEVER taught that. You can go to lds.org or mormon.org and find out all about our "crazy doctrine" Just realize, unless it's official, it's not doctrine. We don't claim that our leaders are or ever we infallible like some churches. Can you see the significance of this?

As far as Mitt and the Mormons go, yes we get a little sensitive when our beliefs are completely taken out of context and paraded around, but you must not know the history of our church. If you did, you would know that we are the only church in America that has ever had an Extermination Order issued against us by a sitting Governor. And it wasn't even rescinded until 1975! So basically, up until 1975 you could legally go shoot a Mormon and take their property. So you can imagine why we get a little testy. Believe me though, none of that means that we are uncomfortable talking about our beliefs, you just need to get us in the right situation to do it. Again, ask an active member and they would be glad to explain what our real doctrine is.

You may be interrested in this too:
http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=3594

It's from a non-Mormon historian that I feel really "gets" us – as much as that is possible considering she's not Mormon – but I don't hold that against her one bit! Thanks for putting up with my ramblings. Have a Happy New Year everyone!

Sure, all religions are a crock, but Mormonism is especially stupid and Joseph Smith was a con man

I just have the following to say: Judge not... If someone tells me their a christian then I'll take their word for it. If someone says "they have been saved" then i'll take their word for it. If I see someone doing something that I do not believe is right then i'll make my stand by turning the other way and not taking part or showing that I approve of that act.

If talking about religion brings contention in your heart then obviously your words are not influenced by the holy spirit. Tis the Season, Stop your bickering and focus on the true meaning of the holidays. Go do some community service, go feed the hungry, cloth the naked, and for christ sake stop fighting.

I hope everyone has a Happy New Year!

As Mormons we believe that there are 15 men who are prophets, seers and revelators. These include the current prophet, his two counselors and the 12 apostles.

These men speak for God and speak WITH God. This concept of ongoing revelation is how and why the church exists.

Comments here about this being an “old” quote from an “old” apostle is ridiculous. If they spoke for God as Mormons believe do their modern counterparts, the date of the quote shouldn’t matter. Unless God changes his mind… a lot.

Still, here are some more recent quotes specific to race issues:

"For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people."
Mormon Scripture as translated by Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:8

"Those who were less valiant in the pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. This inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord’s doing based on His eternal laws of justice.”
Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, 1966

"Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. Think of the Negro, In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant but he will get celestial glory.” (The celestial kingdom is what Mormons believe to be the highest degree of heaven.)
Mormon Apostle Mark E. Petersen,1954

"Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the priviledge of the Priesthood. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.
Mormon Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, 1931

"And why did this curse pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the Devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God."
Mormon Prophet John Taylor, 1881

Sorry I went back to the 19th century for that last one. But as one of the current Mormon “prophets” says,“Once the prophet has spoken, the debate is over.”

GOVERNOR, GOVERNOR, GOVERNOR – PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT? DO WE WANT ANOTHER DIVISIVE PERSON IN THE WHITE HOUSE?

Mormans are "NOT" Christian, but nor are they crazy. I have no problem with a Mormon president. Romney's issues are that he is a liar and a flip flopper for political motivations. Both parties have excellent people running that are not in the top three. Dems have Biden and Richardson who are good and the Reps have Hunter and Paul who are good. But Romney, Guliani, Huckabee, Clinton, Edwards and Obama are not trustworthy.

"any adult who claims to be a believer is either a liar or unfit to be president."

Faulting someone who has faith in any religion is equally as loony. Although I must say I have lost faith in both the republicans and democrats. More interested in being in office and figuring new ways to blow money then anything else. While I dont believe in any one faith I do see value in some of the very basic ideals of most. One should have respect for others beliefs or lack of.

Dale E

"quit saying they are the same as Christians." Hello? Mormons are Christians. No faithful LDS will ever deny the Christ. You or any other evangelical religion do not have a monopoly on the title "Christian" or exclusive rights to Jesus Christ.

The arrogance of "I'm a Christian and you're not because you don't believe some narrowly defined piece of doctrine that I believe" is a shallow excuse for what you profess.

Evangelicals believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as three persons of one substance. That is the Trinity.

LDS believe in the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost as three persons of one purpose. That is the Godhead.

The Bible has just as many quotes that seem to support one idea over the other. You could Bible bash forever on that topic.

To condemn others that don't share your same exact doctrine with the "I'm a Christian and you're not" is simply arrogance and bigotry. Nothing more.

Sorry Mitt, but what you believe in as a religion is every bit as important as what you believe in with respect to public policy. The LDS faith contains racist statements in its scriptures along with opprobrious conduct among its elders. I just think you are not going to be successful in separating yourself from the conduct of the Mormon church unless you come out, like Kennedy did in 1960, and clearly denounce religion as a legitimate influence in public policy decisions.

Don't be so defensive Oscar, I also believe things that are "crazy". The difference between mainstream Christianity is that we spout our crazy beliefs from the rooftops. Mitt and other Mormons seam to feel they are being persecuted when their "crazy" beliefs are mentioned.

Mormons need to start spouting their own craziness from the rooftops and quit saying they are the same as Christians. That would be like Christians claiming to be Jews or Muslims just because of the Abraham association. Mormons should take pride in their own craziness. It is all good; I live in Utah and have nothing but respect for a great majority of all the Mormons I am acquainted with.

Re: kathy from Sarasota

Unbelievable. How much time was spent researching the information contained in that website?

Having served a mission for the "Mormon" church, we are not trained to conceal any information from the people that we teach. We go out and sacrifice 2 years of our lives to share a message about Jesus Christ. We don't go around trying to tear down and destroy the beliefs of others. Sure, we may have beliefs that others find peculiar, but they are in no way "secret" or "satanic." Look up the words "secret" and "sacred" in the dictionary and tell me what you find. We have many beliefs that we hold "sacred," meaning that we respect them and therefore do not talk about them. Don't confuse secret with sacred, to do so is an err in judgment.

And regarding the tearing down of another's beliefs, when, can you tell me, in the entire ministry of the Savior, did he go around trying to destroy the beliefs of others? Never, He spent His time sharing a message of love, not hatred and destruction. He tried to make the lives of those around Him better. He didn't point His finger at everybody who had a different belief than He did, rather He taught them and allowed them to decide for themselves whether or not they were going to believe His message. Surely you can see that if one is truly following the example of the Savior, then you would not try to destroy what someone else believes.

What is being done on that website is not even remotely Christ-like. There is no "love" involved in what is being done on that site, or any anti-mormon, anti-semite, anti-scientology or any anti-anything website or organization.

I feel sorry that there are so many hate-filled people out there that would rather desparage another's beliefs and point out the fact that their beliefs don't coincide with their own rather than trying to look within yourself to see what you can do to become a better person and make this world a better place to live.

Hatred begets hatred. Love begets love. Do unto others......you know the rest

I am a Mormon and just had a couple of thoughts to some of the posts.

fabooj, Los Angeles, CA, I couldn't agree with you more. Many people feel a sense of comfort going through their life with blinders on. I have known many muslim people and have always been impressed with them.

Dale E, what you have been told about Mormons is wrong. You probably already know this, but always check your sources. If you want to know what Mormons believe, ask a Mormon.

BlackEvangelical, it's unfortunate that you were taught to hate another for their beliefs. Contrary to what you were taught, Mormons aren't racist. In fact there are a couple of posts on this forum from Blacks who are also members that corroborate this truth. If you walked into a church service today you would be welcomed with open arms – regardless of your color. And yes, anyone is free to go – no strings attached. Again, it's unfortunate that you were taught this, but it's understanding considering the profession of your father. The Book of Mormon doesn't preach racism. In fact if you have problems with the Book of Mormon you'd also have problems with passages in the Bible (Dan 12:10). Both can be taken out of context, and this is exactly what this mailer is trying to do. This may help to explain things a bit (assuming you really want to know and don't just want to perpetuate falsehoods) By the way, I find the internet to be very helpful too, but as in all things, just because it's out there, doesn't make it true. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=508

FYI, Joseph Smith, the found of the Mormon Church ran for Presidency on an abolitionist position. Unfortunately many of his predecessors weren't as open minded and reversed course, but this was the attitude back then. Sure, today we would be quick to condemn it, but it's dangerous to try and impose our current morals on people in the past and try to judge them based on what we know now.

Here's a recent quote from our current Prophet on race: "I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of (this Church)."

I would invite you to look at the Church with "new eyes" in light of this.

kathy from Sarasota, I followed the link you have and 95% of it is a lie – the other 5% is just stuff taken out of context. If you choose to believe a lie that is your choice, but it doesn't make it truth. Bearing false witness against your neighbor is still a sin in the Bible I believe in.

Pete, how would any of this make Romney awful? It wasn't from him, nor does any active member of the Church believe this. What if this were your beliefs that were maligned and taken out of context? How would you feel?

Bottom line, be careful what you read or believe. If you want to know what a Mormon believes, talk to a Mormon. If you want to find out what a Catholic believes, talk to a Catholic. If you want to find out what a Muslim believes, talk to a Muslim. If you want to find out what a Jew believes, talk to a Jew. Do you see the pattern here? God bless you all.

That's sad that people do this. Nobody deserves this treatment.

To Dale E.:

I am a life-long Mormon. In answer to your question: Any woman who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be saved in heaven regardless of what her husband does in this life. Salvation for each person is an entirely individual process. The only connection we have to others is to do what we can to help them and support them along the way. There is absolutely no basis for what you have heard, either in church doctrine or church practice.

In answer to your fist question: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is monotheistic. We believe in one God, the Eternal Father, and in his son Jesus Christ. The only way our doctrine can be construed to be polytheistic is that we know God and Jesus to be two distinct beings. But, since most Christian faiths worship God and Jesus, I would consider that monotheistic. However, their is no belief in worshiping multiple Gods (outside of God and Jesus Christ), which the term "polytheism" evokes. We do believe that as our Father, God wants us to become like him, just as any father on Earth would want his children to enjoy the blessings and opportunities he has (i.e., becoming like God). Personally, I find this to be one of the most beautiful and comforting doctrines of this faith. If you ponder it for a while and prayerfully consider it, you'll come to understand that it isn't so strange or even blasphemous as some say.

The issue of Mormons having a different perception of God and Christ is a significant point of doctrine to understand, because there are differences and we are unapologetic about them. An official speech given by an Apostle (one of the most prominent Mormon leadership positions) at the most recent semi-annual world wide conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints clearly articulates these differences. If you are genuinely interested in knowing the differences, please go to:

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html

I think you'll find the speech enlightening.

Finally, thanks for asking a straightforward, unloaded question. It was respectful and I appreciate that.

If only we knew what campaign party was in charge of this anti Mormon bigoted post card. They would for sure crumble!

Southern Baptist are notorious Mormon Bashers who ridicule, persecute, and who seem to think they know more about the Mormon church then actual Mormon members. Its such a joke!

Anti Mormon Bigots like the ones who sent out that post card need to focus on the teaching of their church. Unless of course their church teaches to persecute Mormons!

If this card were directed at Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson , bringing their Christianity into play, and with a simliar ending referring to the color of their skin, what would the response be from Sharpton and Jackson?

That's great. All religious people should be mocked and derided. Its ridiculous to point at mormonism and say "that's a crazy religion!" but then look at say catholocism or judaism and say "that religion seems well founded in reality". All religions are crazy and ridiculous and any adult who claims to be a believer is either a liar or unfit to be president.
Another wonderful thing about this dirty trick is that it belies republican scum-bag-ism.

God, save America from religiously deluded politicians, including presidents.
The current one is well enough!
Whoever created that "trick" with the card got the point! True Mormonism venerates polygamy. Is it Mormon religion, itself, which forbade polygamy?
By the way, it is such a pity and sorrow to see Americans (in general) so hopelessly behind the progressive open minded Europe, I mean the Western Europe, of course.

To Kerry San Jose: I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I would like to bear my testimony to you and others who believe that we are a cult and that we are not Christians. First of all the name of the church testifies to the world that it is the Church of Jesus Christ. He is the same Christ that the rest of the Christian world worships. He lives and loves each one of us and he knows each one of us personally. He was born into this world in the humblest of circumstances to show us through His example the things that we need to do while we are here. He spent His whole life ministering and serving others. He paid the ultimate price by taking upon Himself the sins of the world and by allowing Himself to be crucified on the cross. I know that He was willing to be bound by the chains of death so that He could break them for all mankind. He is our Saviour and Redeemer and I like other members of the church try to live my life in accordance with His commandments and His example. I love Him and He is my friend. I would ask that if you are interested in knowing the real truths about the church that you go to the sources that will tell you the truth and not the untruths that are circulating on here and by those who have their own agenda in defacing the church. We strive to better our lives each day by following His example. No one tells me that I have to believe these things and the other teachings of the church, I have studied and prayed myself for the answers and have found them and I am grateful for the blessings that the gospel of Jesus Christ brings into my life and the lives of my family members who strive each day to be a better people. Please everyone out there don't condemn what you truly know nothing about.

this is absurd! get the presidente on the phone!

Why is it people demand that others quit attacking a person's religion when it comes to Romney or Obama, but feels it is OK to attack Huckabee because he is a Christian?

So, how can it be bigotry when it's a direct quote from the BoM? If you believe that white = pure, does that mean you believe black = impure, or to directly quote the BoM, "dark and loathesome?"

Really, I don't know why everyone's garments are in a wad, these passages and quotes are NOTHING compared to some really racist offerings by Joe S. and his successors:

I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. "Darkies" are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church. – President Joseph Fielding Smith, Look magazine, 22 October 1963

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less." (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p. 61)

(NOTE: JFS is referring to the great war in the pre-existence between brothers Jesus and Satan, and YES Mormons are taught to believe they were brothers, so Huckabee was right. Jesus won the war, Satan was cast out with his followers, and the fencesitters in the war, or those who perhaps didn't fight as valiantly, were punished by being sent to earth as blacks.)

"Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, 'what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.' Only here we have the reverse of the thing – what God hath separated, let not man bring together again." – Apostle Mark E. Peterson, Race Problems – As They Affect The Church, Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:110)

In the spirit of equality, a few gems of sexist doctrine and quotations:

On women and rape: "It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." – Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness (now there's an Orwellian title)

"And if Joseph Smith have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore he is justified for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." – Doctrine and Covenants 132:62-63

This was Joe's explanation to his justifiably outraged wife Emma for his habit of bedding/marrying comely young things in the neighborhood.

LDS brethren, you think the scrutiny is bad now, it's going to get even worse as Willard's campaign continues.

Pay Lay Ale ("Oh God, beer is good for my mouth")

Wow, I didn't know that "us" Mormons were secretive? We spend most of the time spreading the Gospel to others and invite them to our church...

Come clean about our church? Try going to our church website: http://www.lds.com, you might just learn something.

Huckabee is a religious bigot and it's a shame people are under his charming "spell".

He also stated Romney's ads were a lie, yet he REFUSES to explain why he pardoned over a 1000 convictions. Please Huckabee, I'm waiting for your answer.

To Patrick in Eastern WA, I went to the website you referenced and it does not give details of Mormon theology. One question for you... Can devout Mormon men become god? If so, will this god have multiple spirit wives? No deception here, just a straight honest question.

To: KA Noone, before you start spewing bigotry and lauding Obama, you should explain why his church website http://www.tucc.org is Blatantly Racist!! Why would anyone want a president who adheres to those types of beliefs? Benefits no one and is going to cause more issues to erupt. In his usual evasive way, he claims not to be a Muslim, but is a member of a church that has nothing to do with the Whole Community and Louis Farrakhan (Nation of Islam) is featured in the church's "Trumpet" magazine (on the website). Go read Erik Rush's "Obamination" here: http://wordforit.wordpress.com/

I don't have a problem with anyone's beliefs (I got mine and am secure!) but I have a huge problem with people who will not research and find out for themselves before commenting as if they have. I wish everyone would read the TUCC website then research the http://www.lds.org and http://www.mormon.org sites. There's plenty of info out there and it's a shame that not only do the politicians have an agenda but voters will take a stand for things that are not going to benefit us long term because they have selfish ulterior motives!

Who cares what other countries want for us? Have you not read that they're all dumping our dollars?!?! This is insane. Obama would take us down paths we are trying to avoid and Romney has a facade that a child would recognize.
M. Huckabee is not strong enough on immigration (if you would PLEASE read some of the info out there!!) and if he let someone out of prison that harmed one of my loved ones, I'd be on the rooftop telling the news.

I don't know why anyone would worry about this...Romney probably set it up for exactly what it's eliciting! One single point about Mormonism that makes it unChristian to a Child of God is that they equate the Book of Mormon with the Bible. They also claim that God had (s?) a body like ours and that He earned His way up the ladder. Yeah, when you go to their site, it will take some looking and "reading between the lines" to see the heresy. It is absolutely not a Christian doctrine and Christains are told to be separate so when you think we are being "bigots", I say thank you b/c I must be standing up for Jesus., whom the Mormons also diminsh in rank.

This is just the reason to vote for John McCain – neither "Huck" or "Rom" deserve to elected – each will do anything to get elected – let them pick on each other and the rest do the right thing and go for "MCCAIN".

To Dale E

Not sure how long your friends have been away, there's some truth to it.

Yes Mormons believe that they can become Gods, but instead of thinking of it in the sense of aspiring to power, it's more of a natural progression. Just as Children Become Adults, Mormons believe that Children of God (Anyone) can eventually become like him. Basically; Mormons believe in a fairly direct interpretation of the phrase "Children of God". Mormons are taught to "worship" God the Father only – In that sense they are Monotheistic, but you're welcome to make a judgment for yourself on that one.

As for women only getting Eternal life if men call them to it... That's a stretch. The Mormon belief is that all will be resurrected regardless of merit. Once resurrected, all will be judged...

Not sure if it answers your question.

Hope it helps

If the Moron quotes are correct, there is nothing to condemn; unless Mit is not proud of his polygamous and racist religion.

An exceedingly fair and white Mary is going to be hard to find in the hot Middle East. She has to have some 'red neck'. LOL

Does any of this have anything to do with how Mitt Romney will perform as president? NO. Then who cares? If you want to know what Mormons believe, visit the Mormon website http://www.lds.org. If you don't then forget about it. Problem solved.

Awesome. Romney is awful.

FACTS MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU WHEN THEY COME TO YOUR DOOR

http://www.macgregorministries.org/mormons/facts.html

To Citizen3591

I agree that most scripture isn’t incredibly flattering when you read it the first time. That was my first impression too.

To answer your question I believe that the House of Israel is referring to the Jews at the time of Jesus Christ in this instance, and the rest flows logically that they, with the Romans, fought against the early Christian Church (with the 12 Apostles).

Those groups that fought the early Christian Church were eventually destroyed (or at least severely persecuted as was the case with the Jews)

“Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

So, if my interpretation is right, then this is something that already happened, and doesn't mean that Mormons want to destroy anyone who fights them (Which is what I guess you read into it).

It might sound different when you read it with that in mind.

Rudy is at it again!

To Steve in Seattle: If "all (you) know about Mormonism" comes from your reading Krakauer, you would do well to browse the LDS Church's website at http://www.mormons.org. You would learn a lot more about what they actually believe than you would asking the kinds of questions you suggested.

To Defense Dem: You state that "Mormonism is not Christian," and support that by saying that "Mormons claim Jesus did not die on the cross." That is contradicted by the LDS site noted above. Where did you get this idea?

Of course, the whole point of the current controversy is that this greeting card was sent out to voters under false pretenses. If someone disagrees with Romney's religious beliefs, why don't they just come out and say so ? The deception really makes their motives suspect.

The passage from the Book of Mormon about the Virgin birth is accuate. If the card author intended to imply a racist passage, the deception is that I have never thought of nor had that passage taught to me with any rascist overtones.

The "plurality of wives" quote from Orson Pratt is not in Mormon scripture. Some of Orson Pratt's statements and opinions were controversial even in the 1800's, so it is deceptive to put forth a quote from him now and claim it is "what Mormon's believe". It is what one Mormon believed at one point in time on a far out topic that most Mormons wouldn't feel urgent that they understand.

As a point of order, you can be fairly sceptical of those that put forth obscure quotes from 19th century Mormons and simply say "Can you believe that Mormon's believe that!" Usually such quotes need a fair amount of context if they are central to mainstream Mormon theology, and quite frequently they do not represent what most Mormons believe. It is a age old tactic of those that want to disparage someone else's faith rather than have a meaningful dialogue to promote understanding.

To Kristy Sanborn:

You wrote: " I read an 'opinion' letter to the Editor and when the person referred to God, they put 'g-d'….. how pathetic is that?"

Not knowing the context of the letter you read, but it's not necessarily pathetic, it's how some people choose to show respect to a divinity, by not typing out the entire word.

Romney spokesman Will Holley condemned the card.

"It is sad and unfortunate that this kind of deception and trickery has been employed," Holley said. "There is absolutely no place for it in American politics."
*****************************************************************************************
This is card is indeed a dirty political trick, but what parts of the card does Romney's spokesman condemned; that the card came from Romney's Family or selected text from the Book of Mormons?

I followed this hint left in a previous comment by a certain "Greg":

<>

Out of open-minded curiosity I read the entire passage from Nephi. I have to say that even "in context", what's written there is unflattering, to say the least, of Mormon beliefs.

Verses 35 and 36 for example:

35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

...so much for tolerance of any non-Mormons in the universe. Especially Jews, if I interpret "the house of Israel" correctly.

If one does a compare and contrast between Christianity and Mormonism the differences are clear. Here are two of many contrasting beliefs:

Christianity – 1) Monotheistic. 2) Male and Females can live for eternity in heaven.

Mormonism – 1) Polytheistic (all men can become a god of his own kingdom... there are many gods). 2) Women are subject to eternal life if her husband calls her from the grave.

If this information is incorrect I would like to know. This information came from many disenfranchised Mormons that I have come to know.

The bottom line is that it wasn't sent by Romney. All of the religious aspects are moot because it isn't about religion, it's about getting one's way. Someone doesn't want Romney to be elected so they'll do what they can to make sure that he isn't elected.

And what if Mormons do believe weird things? So what!! People everywhere believe strange things, but that doesn't disqualify them as being decent and honorable people. And for all of you out there who claim to know everything about God, how can you say with 100% surity that you know everything there is to know about God? Stop putting words in His mouth and acting like you know what He thinks and what He feels. I don't know what my neighbor, or anyone for that matter, truly thinks or feels and I definitely don't know the true intent of their heart and to say that I know what the true intententions of someone's heart other than my own is assinine and ignorant.

Stop the hatred. Stop the ingnorance and stop being so offended!

He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool.

Kristy,

The writing of god as g-d is traditionally done by Jews who do it in reverence of his title. While I obviously don't follow their tradition, as indicated by the fifth word in my reply, it is by no means pathetic.

Regards,

Jeff Bailey

I am a (Black Evangelical ), raised by a Bible Believing Preacher who also knows EXACTLY what the Book of Mormon teaches as well as some other religions declared to be "cults" because I researched them. I do happen to have a dog in this fight and I am certain there is no confusion where I stand in my opinion of the Mormon Church.

But reading all of these comments by seculars and those uninformed about what the Book of Mormon really teaches , as well as reading comments by those well aware of the Book of Mormon and those defending or masking the teachings found there in, I'd say there is not only a lot of ignorance floating around, but some serious deception being spread by apologists.

I encourage everyone who is confused about the Mormon religion to do the research themselves. We all have access to Google. Read the text yourselves and read what has actually come out of the mouths of the Church Leaders and "Church Fathers" that Mitt Romney said he will take with him into the White House. If you do that, there will be no doubt what the Mormon Religion really is . As far as the mailer. I think , all things considered, whoever was behind it , well, look at my first comment.

This really raises two substantial issues. First, since the Republicans have made religion such a cornerstone of their party, they should not be surprised when candidates try to out-christian each other. And second, aren't the quotes from the book of Mormon and the apostle actually correct? Romney chose to run as a republican, and he should have known this would happen in that party.

To the previous comment of Terry, from El Paso:

You are a very rational person, and your remarks are quite sensible. This act is indeed nothing but dirty politics. Very dirty.

But the calculation in this dastardly act is superb. Whoever did it is exploiting the ugly side of the Mormon faith, which, as you point out, came of age during a very racist period in American history.

Now, perpetrators aside, as one of "those whose skins are not white and fair " I am completely alienated, not to mention offended, by the quotes from the book of Mormon.

Romney, as a believer in a racist religious philosophy, should not even THINK of getting my vote. I doubt that he'll get any votes from people like me.

What was not particularly well calculated, though, was who will get my vote as a result of this strategy.

Could this not be the work of Hitlery Klinton? She gets to make s everyone look bad and keep her hands looking clean if she did this.

WHOA!!!! I am for the strong, silent type......John Edwards, save us from this garbage!!

I happen to be "Mormon" and I am a staunch Edwards backer! GASP!

What's the problem with Mary being white??? Let's see....Jewish, Israelite, descendant of David....OH YEAH, that would be.....WHITE!!! If you don't believe me you need to explore my own family roots that are also Jewish. Besides, who cares if she was exceedingly fair and PURPLE. She was the mother of the Savior and highly favored, not because of her skin color, but because she was a pure and righteous woman!

I haven't read, heard or seen Romney saying that he is "offended" by the card's statement, only a member of his campaign crew saying it is not appropriate politics. I don't see him or anyone else denying the quote.....just that it was NOT sent from the Romney's and certainly NOT from the Boston Temple......if you knew anything at all about the "Mormon" church, you would know just how absurd that is.

Not secretive....not a cult....definitely Christian....don't care whether my president is or not. Get a grip people!

Seems like the Republicans are after Romney like they were in South Carolina after McCain. Calling and asking if you would vote for McCain if he had an illegitimate black child. Never saying he had one but suggesting it and that is all it took for some Southerners to believe it . Now it is go after Romney on his religion. His religion should not play a part in his campaign. IF THEY BELIEVED IN SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, which the republicans DO NOT. I hope the South Carolinians are smart enough to know that the card DID NOT come from the Romney campaign. By the way, although I am taking up for Romney, I am Democrat but fair is fair, no matter what your party affiliation.

Cry a Catholic a River... Really? Everyone is acting so shocked like this is NEW. Anyone remember the "tunnel to the Vatican"? (JFK reference for those who don't). The U.S. has elected 11 Episcopalians, 10 Presbyterians, 5 Methodists, 4 Baptists, 4 Unitarians, 3 Disciples of Christ, 2 Dutch Reformists, 2 Quakers, 2 Congregationalists, 1 Catholic, and 1 Jehovah's Witness (though I am not sure many know that that was Ike's religious affiliation). Jack Kennedy had to face peoples' fears about his religion head on. Because of fear and well, lets be honest there are some crazy things in the Book of Mormon (like all religious texts, Transubstantiation anyone?). Candidates from all walks of life have had to answer the question of what they believe in spiritually.

Plus this is the country that Swiftboated John Kerry (among many many other dirty politics) I am shocked everyone is so shocked at these politics as usual.

Disappointing, but not surprising, to see that some folks would defend the dishonest (if not criminal) tactics of the card-senders. This is nasty social engineering, an impersonation and a fraud. If you're hung up on the religious details then you're not getting it... somebody is commiting mail fraud folks! Lately it's been ironic to see that those who work hardest to portray the Mormons as dishonest are themselves the ones who are most inclined to use nasty and dishonest methods for getting their opinion heard.

Thought the card is not from Romney the card does depict Mormon belief and teaching. Does anyone argue the content of the letter?

Dee Cook – Don't tell me that this is what "Mormons honestly believe." You and others that believe this have obviously read anti-Mormon books and base your belief on the lies found in those books.

If anyone wants to know what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe, read the Book of Mormon. Look up our beliefs in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

Contrary to anti-Mormon nosense, we don't hide our beliefs. We're not afraid to have the come under scrutiny. We just ask they be judged on what we believe, not what some professional anti-Mormon (who makes a living by attacking the Church of Jesus Christ) say.

Romney is a Mormon, and make no mistake about it if he becomes President then the Mormons will gain A LOT more power in the United States. This is not a good thing people ! The Mormons are very exclusionary and 'holier than thou', trust me I know quite a few and that religion is nothing but a freakish cult.

The Catholic church doesn't even recognize them and won't accept their baptismal certs !!! But they accept Jews ! What does that tell you?

The Mormon 'religion' is nothing but a cult started by some whack job in the 1800's. GEE of course they believed in multiple wives! What red-blooded male wouldn't want to sleep with a bunch of different women every week !! Why didn't God give women the right to have multiple husbands ? lol !

Personally I can only handle one wife, lol.

Read the Old and New Testament – those are the words of God. Not this nonsense called the 'book of Mormon' !!!

Anyway this is my opinion. The Mormons have a right to religious freedom in this country – however do not believe for a second that they are in any way shape or form 'Christians'. They are NOT.

BruceatCDoST, Romney has already addressed this. He's already said that he would use the Bible. Mormons believe the Bible to be the word of God, they just beleive there's more that God has spoken to other people and they beleive he speaks today through a living Prophet.

If you want to know what other books they consider scripture or what constitutes "Doctrine" in the Church, this will answer it completely:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine

This is just an attempt to put doubt in the minds of voters on some religious basis which points at Huckabee since he is the only one who has the base to do it. That may turn out to be false, but strategically it makes sense.

Just because an apostle states his opinion does not make it the doctrine of the church. I know of nothing by way of scripture or any official declaration stating anything like unto what Orson Pratt may have said.

This only furthers my belief that all organized religion is a fantasy made up of man. The divine energy that I call God, if you will, would never be a part of this insanity and absurdity that is most assuredly man made...If peace is ever to come to the world it will be in the absence of religion! May the new year begin the process of the illimination of this great fantasy...

Why is everyone so ready to believe Huckabee is responsible for this. Why not Thompson, McCain or here is a twist Romney himself to paint himself as the victim. (based on the negative campaign Romney has run is that hard to believe) . I am not a Huckabee supporter or even a Republican but is seem pretty clear that the Republican establishment will stop at nothing to derail his campaign.

Does Huckabee even have the funds or capacity to pull this off? this is chess not checkers folks don't assume the most obvious is correct.

At Sean Allen: you said "Mormons treat their "religion" with extreme secrecy as if they fear some repercussion if the truth became known."

If you'd like to know what we teach in our Ward Buildings, then go read it. It's available online at http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=b3a4bd90517da010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0
That's a hideous URL, so you can get to the "secret" Mormon lesson manuals by visiting http://www.lds.org/ and clicking on "Prepare a Lesson" near the top on on the right side.

We look secret to you because you are looking very hard for something which isn't there. So to you it looks like a conspiracy. All good conspiracy theories require a covert effort to conceal the truth (otherwise it wouldn't be a conspiracy).

Those who read racism in the Book of Mormon often ignore 2 Nephi 26:33, which reads (in part, you can get the whole thing at scriptures.lds.org) .... he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

As a practicing and believing Latter-day Saint (Mormon) who does not support Romney politically, I state that we don't know who sent this but it seems to be as much an attack on my faith as it is on Romney's candidacy. The quotes are out of context and distorted. Early church leaders said all kinds of things that are not official doctrines of the church. "Temples" do not send out Christmas cards (at least I never got one) or engage in politics in any way. Chapter 11 of I Nephi is one of my favorite passages full of testimony of the divinity of the Savior Jesus Christ and his Atonement. I invite all to read the chapter in its entirety (go to mormon.org) and then go on to read the whole book. It is sacred scripture, like the Bible, and a second witness of Jesus Christ and his Gospel which has and should have nothing to do with a political contest. Peace!

Even if it is what Mormon's think, so what?? The question is or should be how his policies whould impact our lives and can we support him. Seeing that some christians in the past have had some strange life styles, maybe they had better get their own house in order first. It's sad to see that hate is alive and well in our country, guess hate doesn't take a break during christmas.

Compared to all the negative campaigning Romney's been doing against McCain, Huckabee and anyone else that stands in this megalomaniac's quest to buy himself the Presidency, this card thing is pretty mild. Romney's the slimey one and I wouldn't be surprised if it came to light that his campaign was behind this to generate sympathy!

As for the dolt who wrote this:

"Just last night in our little local paper, I read an 'opinion' letter to the Editor and when the person referred to God, they put 'g-d'….. how pathetic is that?"

Many people, especially the Jews, believe that the name of God should not be written out entirely or spoken. So it's possible this person was trying not to defame the word God by throwing it around like any other word. Get a grip, please!

You want to know what the Mormons believe in. Its quite a simple find. Just Search for the 13 Articles of Faith LDS. The last 3 should calm any of your fears regarding "Mormons" Isn't it sad that others don't have these articles to live by.

I am not a fan of Romney's by any means – I find his "seeing his father walking with MLK" and his "lifetime hunter" stories a riot. Plus I feel as if he flip flopped on his true beliefs to become governor of Massachusetts, possibly the most liberal state in the country.

But this is devious. Someone sending this around including the quote about God having many wives. Of course it was designed to get those in the "bible belt" pissed off against Romney. I hope the FBI discover who was behind this and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the Huckster. How "Christian" of him! I haven't heard any explanations of what he had said at an "anti-Mormon" rally some years ago.

I was brought up Catholic but religion isn't a big part of my life anymore. At least organized religion. I became disillusioned with the Catholic Church many years ago and am disgusted with so-called Christians who spew hate and intolerance. Or try to force their beliefs on me. I have been to lds.org because I am interested in what this religion is. What I have read so far is pretty different from what I was taught, but who knows.

I just want someone to be president who is intelligent, honest, compassionate and fearless. Someone who can undo what Bush has done to this country, and possibly to this world. Whether that person is white or black, male or female, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Muslim or ATHEIST, I really don't care. Just let me be proud of my country again.

This is very interesting since the LDS church does not endorse any political parties. The church encourages all its members to study the issues and to vote, but never tells them how to vote. None of its buildings are allowed to have any political speeches given in them or in any way to give the impression it supports any candidate. And to say the cards or messages were paid for by one of it's temples is absurd. Whoever sent this card out does not know the policies of the LDS church.

Why do Mormon beliefs scare everyone? I know Mormons and they don't scare me in the least. Pretty decent people.

response to Dee Cook

You may THINK you are being honest, but you are not being FACTUAL. Isn't there something in the Bible about not bearing false witness against your neighbor? If you say that someone else believes something when you've been told time and time again that they don't, wouldn't this fall into that category?

However, since it didn't sink in the first, or second, or third time…what you said is NOT what we believe nor is what you said the doctrine or teachings of the Church. Period!!! End of discussion. ANYONE in the church can say ANYTHING that they want, and I mean anyone. Do you understand that? That doesn't make it doctrine and doesn't mean we have to all believe it.

Actually if you've been told that's not what they believe and you still say they do then you're also breaking the commandment about not lying. But hey, isn't repentance great?

Actually, to be clear this isn't religious bigotry. It's a calculated political trick designed to play on the assumed bigotry of southern voters.

Think of the Dylan song: "Only a pawn in their game." If bigots react to this fake holiday card by voting against Romney, they will fulfill of the mission of the people who fabricated the trick.

Don't be fooled.

The wisest thing to do is to ignore this trash as the work of extremists and not point fingers and blame to anyone, neither Romney nor his opponents. Any judgements (without knowledge) will result in meeting the intended goal.

Unfortunately my above comment was accidentally submitted prior to my proof reading and completing it.. please correct one of the first sentences as stated below:
"......In fact, I was repeatedly instructed NOT TO TAKE SOMEONE ELSE'S WORD FOR IT, BUT..........to ask and search and involve myself in sincere dialogue with the Missionaries and the members that I got to know. More important was to pray about it myself. Individual searching and receiving are clearly evidences of a healthy and open system of communication within a community of religious believers."

2). Our great country was founded upon the principle of religious freedom and outlaws a State sponsored religion which was dictated by the Governmental powers. Did everyone have fits when Joe Lieberman was vying for the Democratic Party's Presidency? I personally would have no problem voting for someone just because they were Jewish. I know many fabulous Jews and Muslims who are honest and share the same American values and goals that I do. This attempted sabotage on Mitt Romney's political campaign promoted by way of a misrepresented distored view of his Christian religion is a very ignorant mentality. It's actually scary when you realize this powerful country of ours exists on an earth where many religions operate and they must be respected when having dialogue with other Governments and Countries. Imagine the offense others leaders will feel if our future President can not see anything past the religious differences with a Middle East Leader? A concerning thing about this particular type of attempted attack magnifies the feeling of religious intolerance among those who are seeking to gain power in this free US Government of ours. The issues here are the political and moral issues facing this beautiful country of ours. My own father was willing to pay with his life to protect the USA on Omaha Beach in the D-Day invasion.
3). The so called "Mormon doctrines" this card misrepresents. The strange quote from Orson Pratt isn't even searchable on the official Church Website: http://www.lds.org or http://www.mormon.org. The fact is that this isn't Church doctrine. I've read more than most LDS members throughout the years and have never come across that one. We are a people who regularly give our sources. The quote from the Book of Mormon should only underscore the shared belief among all Christians that Mary was a pure vessel (white being a symbol of that). Those who know God's language in the scriptures know he very often speaks using words that are symbols of deeper meaning to emphasize or repeat the obvious truth he just spoke. I've never ever heard anyone use this as evidence of racial superiority and this is not the belief of our Church. There are no superior races-al are equal to God and we are all His children whom He loves and regards as equals. This quote from the Book of Mormon speaks as a witness for Jesus Christ and the pure, virgin state of the mother through which he condescended and came to earth as the Only Begotten Son of God. There is absolutely no doctrine about our Father in Heaven having Mary as His wife or having a plurality of wives. Some within the congregation have extrapolated on this but there is no doctrine which the LDS Church espouses on this issue. Having heard and studied literally thousands of teachings from our Church Leaders I have never heard anything like what this card presents as our doctrines of plurality of wives.
4). The 12th of our 13 Articles of Faith states, "We Believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." You will find the LDS people generally an amazingly highly involved and law abiding people. If Mitt Romney becomes our next President, you will not find him trying to do anything against the laws of this land. Our people in every land are known for the law abiding habits–even when East Germany remained under Communist rule our Leaders instructed them to keep the laws of the country in which they lived and to be examples of Christianity within the law they were required to honor. The leaders of our Church had dialogue with the East German government and were actually given permission to build and operate a Temple while under Communist rule. How secretive do you think the Communists thought Mormons were? Really, think about that one!
5). the mailings are illegal, verified by the FBI taking it on and exploring the origin of it. Who would want to support a Presidential candidate or their base who would go to illegal methods to promote themselves. Where will the line be drawn when no one is looking after such people are elected? If you or I sent out similar mailings and signed it with our neighboring Church's name we'd be in pretty hot water too!
6). Did you know the Senate Majority Leader-Harry Reid, Democrat is also a strong, faithful, lifelong member of the LDS Church? Have you heard that he was attacked with such propaganda? Why do you think that hasn't happened? Our Church does not endorse any Party or candidate. Our buildings are not allowed to be used for any political purpose and every year we are asked at Election Time to study out the issues and vote for those we feel will best lead our country.
We all ought to be informed about the issues we each believe to be important to our Country at this time. I hope this help to clear up some of the misinformation that is going around about our church. We don't all have to believe the same things religiously but let's try to keep things honest and stop using methods that are not worthy of the great process that many have paid the price to preserve in this marvelous land of the Brave and the Free.

As a lifelong Republican, I can say confidently that hell will freeze over before I'll vote for Huckabee if he wins the nomination. I will not tolerate these attacks on a person's faith, even if I have to vote for a Democrat.

This postcard is obviously from the same folks who in 2000 claimed that John McCain had "a black child". Republican operatives have no qualms stooping to the lowest level to achieve their political ends. I am not a supporter of Romney (or any Republican candidate); I am unequivocally against this kind of smear tactic. Karl Rove and his protégés should be ashamed of themselves!

Recognizing that Mitt Romney's campaign has gotten decidedly dirty, I'm not so sure he isn't the sender of those cards, employing a reverse psychology of sorts. What better way to create the illusion of being the target of bigotry by another group than to do it yourself. We'll never get to the bottom of this Christmas card stunt, but until we do I won't be eliminating Mitt Romney as a suspect.

The flip flopper can dish it out but he can't take it? LOL I hope Mitt get's eaten by the smoke monster from Lost

Jared Hollloway, you said:

"Well… he is a mormon, and it is what mormons believe… so, its actually kinda sad he'd deny it… cna't have faith both ways. FLIP FLOP again!"

Romney denied NOTHING! His spokesman Will Holley CONDEMNED (not denied) the card saying, "It is sad and unfortunate that this kind of deception and trickery has been employed," Holley said. "There is absolutely no place for it in American politics."

Where do you see the denial or flip-flopping here? I would also suggest you listen to Romney's faith speech, where he says, "There are some for whom these commitments are not enough. They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion, say that it is more a tradition than my personal conviction, or disavow one or another of its precepts. That I will not do. I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers – I will be true to them and to my beliefs. Some believe that such a confession of my faith will sink my candidacy. If they are right, so be it." No denial here either.

As for these cards in SC, I truly hope those behind them are traced. It would be interesting to find out if this latest attack against Romney is connected to earlier push polls in NH.

Lastly, my vote goes to Gov. Romney without hesitation. I truly believe he will make one fine president – hard working, energetic, dedicated, passionate, intelligent, well educated, family oriented, and someone with great vision for our country. Not only he alone, but the whole Romney family as First Family will make America proud again.

Romney slips up!! 12/30/2007:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071230/30684_Pro-Gay_Romney_Upsets_Family_Values_Leader.htm

You can do an internet search on Mormonism and read both sides. It is easy as apple pie.

everyone needs to see this http://www.trueromney.com

willard is a lying sack of crap

Dear Ryan,

Thank you so very much for telling me what I BELIEVE IN. It's just beyond me how I've gone the last 21 years being a member of the Church of Jesus Chris of Latter-Day Saints not knowing what it is that I do on Sundays. Seriously I can't understand how I dress myself in the morning, it's beyond me.

Now that I have captivated you by letting you know how much fun I had laughing at your comment, I'm going to tell you what's up. First of all, white is a symbol of purity, not concerning the particular hue of anyone's skin, but their spirit, their heart, their actions, and things of that nature. Taking things out of context is the main reason the Bible has been re-translated and re-written THOUSANDS of times, so people get the message EASIER. Well, obviously reading a different translation would cause different beliefs to be followed because with so many different translations, there are literally hundreds of different denominations that believe different things when they should be reading the same thing. Now, the LDS Church does read the King James version of the Bible; Why you ask? Because it was changed the least out of the thousands of different translations it is the closest one. Now, changing the word white to the word pure is not changing the context at all, it's just making it more clear, as there are a few different examples in the Book of Mormon that were fixed just to get the message accross easier.

I'm rambling, but the bottom line is, if you want to know what Mormons believe in, whether it be for ammunition when you want to make fun of me(go ahead, i don't mind), or if you actually are curious, ASK A MORMON. Not a baptist bigot.

I'm out.

Ugly! Ugly! Ugly! Gotta be Huckabee supporters behind something so religiously bigoted!

The Christmas card attack is wrong headed, but it competes at the same level of dirty politics and dishonesty employed by Romney. It's hard to sympathize with a guy who lies on cue every day he campaigns and beyond. As for those who would use this shoddy greeting card trick, they are inspired by their own lunacy and perversions. But they have a little help from the Mormons in this devious sneak attack. The Mormons have created a wall of secrecy and double talk around their religious beliefs that invites garbage like this. They need to come out from the shadows of their guarded beliefs and lay them out in clear, unambiguous terms for all to see. The obligation is on the Mormon community to demystify the confusion they've brought with their religious beliefs. Until that happens, expect little sympathy for guys like Romney and more insane Christmas card attacks from the evangelical right. The Mormons have helped themselves into this situation so it is up to them to correct it.

This brings up some significant issues:
30 yrs ago I vigorously studied and searched the teachings of the LDS Church for 3+ years prior to joining it. In fact, I was repeatedly instructed NOT to ask and search and involve myself in sincere dialogue with the Missionaries and the members that the I got to know. If this isn't an open atmosphere I don't know what is! I have lived both in out of the USA and consistently found an atmosphere of openness among all the Wards. I have myself spent countless hours answering varying levels of inquiries regarding our beliefs, as do millions of our members. There is simply no truth to the statement that we are a secretive Church-it is actually quite the opposite. As it was in ancient Israel, we also have Temples where ALL who desire may come to make and receive sacred Covenants. Those who demonstrate faithful adherenece to the basic promises made at their Baptism may then attend the Temple in their personal and private desire to draw closer to God and their families. We believe Temples to be Houses of our God and therefore are a very sacred place of worship and you will not find faithful members disclosing sacred ordinances outside of that Holy place. Those who have studied the Old Testament and are acquainted with the ancient Temples are aware that God gave specific instructions on it's purpose and use throughout the ages. It is all very consistent; I found that easy to accept based upon my previous faithful upbringing in a different Christian Church. Furthermore, the 11th of our well defined 13 Articles of Faith states, " We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Romney spokesman Will Holley condemned the card.

"It is sad and unfortunate that this kind of deception and trickery has been employed," Holley said. "There is absolutely no place for it in American politics."

Well that lets the Romney camp out of the running.

American politics are nothing if not filled with trickery and deception. It raises my spirits to see the politicians getting it in the butt the same way the American middle class families get it every day. And look at how they whine when the shoe is on the other foot. No doubt it's a foul trick,, this Christmas card debacle,, but fair play is nothing but a memory for most of us,, Maybe Romney knows how we peons feel now.

Pure bigotry....just like some of the comments on here ironically enough.

Gee, dirty politics in South Carolina just prior to a Republican Presidential Primary. Why does this sound familiar? This reeks of the same kind of tactics used against John McCain just prior to the 2000 Republican Presidential Primary in South Carolina. Anybody else remember when a flyer accusing McCain of having a black child mysteriously appeared in South Carolina on the windshields of cars parked in Christian church parking lots just prior to the 2000 primary? I believe the truth was that McCain and his wife had adopted a child from India.

Whoever did this is counting on human nature to achieve their purpose. And that part of human nature was best described in the following quote:

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
- Winston Churchill

Let's all hope that the perpetrators of this act, whoever they are, don't get the control of our government that they seek.

Isn't Will Holley the same person involved in the Bush 2000 campaign that was hinting that McCain had a black child because of infidelity in his marriage? If Romney was a stand up guy who believed in principals – why would he hire the same guy who used dirty tactics (because they worked). Polls tell you that the people in the US are sick of the religion card, and do not like people attacking others' personal beliefs–then we have this alleged mailing (how many people received them?). Why are they complaining now – nearly a week after Christmas? Don't Christmas cards get mailed before Christmas? So days before the primaries, Romney looks like a victim of a smear campaign – and all other candidates are suspected of doing the deed. Romney wins, the others loses. Seems very possible that Holley and Romney were behind this whole plan themselves.

When they write "deception and trickery," do they mean that the Mormons don't believe what is claimed in the card? It is certainly unethical to misattribute the funding and organizing entity behind this card. It is not at all unethical to debate the theological beliefs of the candidates in the Republican primary because the Republican party has focused on religion and religious belief for years and has made that belief into a test for potential candidates.

If the general public had any idea of the nutty things that Mormons believe, Mitt Romney wouldn't stand a chance.

The card is fraudulent insofar as it claims falsely to be from Romney, but that is a rather minor thing. Obviously, it is intended to emphasize Romney's allegiance to the Mormon church, and its unique teachings, but in this respect it does not appear to misrepresent anything. The card obviously appeals to anti-Mormon sentiment, but not by way of slander, rather merely by way of highlighting the things about Mormonism that other Christians object to.

Which is to say that the real bigotry is not on the part of whoever sent the card, but on the part of those Christians who would be effectively moved against Romney by knowledge of his Mormonism. The sender of the card is merely assuming that non-Mormons (and in this case, it would have to be non-Mormon Christians particularly) would turn against Romney on the basis of what they read in it. And that assumption appears to be accurate. But it's hardly bigotry to accurately predict that the readers of this card are bigots. It is certainly bigotry to reject Romney simply because his religion differs from one's own, but it is the readers of the card, not the sender, who are expected to do that.

It is perhaps a very ugly kind of politics to knowingly appeal to bigotry in order to win an election, but, to be clear, the bigotry is on the part of the anti-Mormon Christians, not on the part of the one who merely took advantage of their anti-Mormonism. The solution to the problem is not for political operatives to stop sending cards to bigoted Christians, but for Christians to stop being bigots. If other Christians were willing the accept Christians different from themselves (not even to say non-Christians), these types of things would have no impact. It's only because that bigotry exists that it can be taken advantage of. When the bigots reform, they will no longer be slaves to their own bigotry.

Of course, being non-religious entirely, I just think the whole thing is amusing. The Christians finally ran out of new people to hate and are turning on each other! I can't think of a more appropriate development.

Reagrdless of the origin and intent, these quotes are most definitely taken out of context. The mormon scriptures use the term 'white' to refer to things that are clean or untainted, not caucasian. The point here is that Mary is pure.

Same context. The controversy is the belief system that Mormons and Romney share: Jesus not dying on the cross, later preaching to Inca Indians; black people being cursed before coming to earth; Armageddon taking place in Utah. And now an 'exceedingly fair and white' Mary? OK. The last time I checked, the Bible was God's Word, and it clearly states "one faith, one God, one baptism", and implores us to not be deceived by anyone who preaches another Gospel (Book Of Mormon), or another Christ. Spin it as you wish, however, truth cannot be shaken. Therefore I cannot conceive how Romney will be able to garner significant support in the all-important so-called Bible Belt states. And I can't fathom how Jews had anything at all to do with the conversation.

As a Christian and a liberal Democrat, I find this situation rather humerous.

The Republican Mormans and the Republican evangelical Christians have been allies in an effort to "reform" America's morals, using their interpretation of scriptures to impose a "secular orthodoxy" on the rest of us. Now, it appears, this fundamentalist campaign for orthodoxy has been turned internally to serve as a litmus test for their own candidates.

If the fundamentalists are willing to impose their values on the secular world...its fair that their candidates be scrutinized by the same standards.

Like people have already pointed out, the theology and veracity are irrelevant. The quotes sound very much taken out of context. I could just as easily find quotes in the bible that taken in isolation would make christianity look very bad. That someone who thinks they are a christian would stoop to this level is sad. There will be a special place in hell waiting for whoever did this.

To Kerry in San Jose

"The Jews" are not a race any more than The Christians" are a race – they are people who adhere to a religion and include people of different races. Jew as a word to describe race should have died in 1945, sadly it didn't.

With Utah having the distinction of being the reddest State I think the people attacking the Mormons had better tread very lightly. We as Republicans should think about the long-term ramifications attacking 13 Million Republican voters. The party does not even have to spend any advertising resources in Utah. What if the Mormons decided that the Republican Party has left them?

Reminds me of the whisper campaign in 2000 in SC. McCain had recently trounced George W. Bush in NH and suddenly voters at the next stop were being told that McCain had an illegitimate child of color. Not mentioned was the fact that the child was a Bangladeshi McCain and his wife adopted. Of course that would have destroyed the effect in this southern state.

If it is Huckabee, he's been reading Karl Rove's primer on Texas politics.

It is truly a sad day for America when we see so much hate and ignorance across our society. We see that hate continue in the posts on this site. Mitt Romney, win or lose, should be judged on his ability to effectively run this country and improve the lives of American, not what he believes or doesn't believe.

This country was founded on religious freedom yet we see so much intolerance even on this very board by hate-mongering people who are unable to look past their own pride to recognize that all of God's children have a right to worship in whatever manner they choose.

Any person in the entire world can find out exactly what a Mormon believes from simply ready the discourses of its leaders over the past 30 years. 100% of every word spoken by any leader of the church is available for public review.

Most people would rather hang on to their hate rather than truly investigating truth.

I do believe this act came from someone in the Huckabee camp but until there is proof we can only know for sure it was NOT someone who wants Romney to succeed and they used lies and falsehoods wrapped with a small number of facts to try and perpetuate their hate.

While I didn't get this card, I have to say that this is the EXACT kind of dirty tricks that G. W. Bush used against McCain right here in S.C. before the Primary in 2000 and it worked grandly. Who ever sent this card is just betting on past success that the GOP in this state will close their eyes, blindly follow the hatefu message in this card (as in the McCain flier) and vote their prejudices...again.

NO THE ORIGINAL JEW WERE NOT WHITE. THE JEWS WE SEE TODAY IN ISRAEL ARE EUROPEAN AS THE FRENCH. THEY ARE THE VICTIMS OF EUROPEAN BIOGTRY. THEY ARE CAUCASAINS. ORIGINAL PEOPLE ARE INDIGNEGOUS TO A LAND. YOU TELL ME WHERE CAUCASIANS CAN CLAIM TO BE THE NATIVE PEOPLE OF ANY LAND? MORMONS BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE COLOR BECAUSE THEY WERE INDECISIVE ABOUT GOD. EXPLAINING WHY 99.99999999 OF THEIR MEMBERS ARE CAUCASIANS. WHY ARE CAUCASIANS CALLED CAUCASIANS?

The Neocons are at it again. Wonder when they'll dig up the "evidence" of Mitts illegitimate black child?

This whole episode would be hillarious if not for the fact that some people in this country actually think that a superstitious fool that has a mental deficiency could possibly become president. Who cares about whose imaginary friend had how many wives or what color they might have been? It's all fiction!

Why is this considered a smear? The content and writings on this card are a direct quotation of Mormon dogma. What is there to be ashame of, isn't Romney a Mormon and are the words of nephi not true. Romney should embrace his faith, the good, the bad, and the ugly. All religion is suspect and contain incredulous dogmas and beliefs.

It is because of crazy storys like this one that i look forward to reading the ticker each day. I say that as clear faced as that Christmas card.

Romney may have not sent the card, but he will never condemn or reject the contents of it. He believes it hook, line, and sinker. The card is a quote of the Mormon father god getting the hots for Mary just before they had physical sex. The ultimate goal of Mormonism is the Mormon church to take over the USA government after a period of chaos. Every Mormon stores food to see them through this time that will come just before the takeover. This doesn't even include the weirdness of the "holy underwear" that they wear.

Ajay Jain, Garland, TX December 30, 2007 2:32 am ET

Dirty tricks will serve noone this campaign cycle. I think Romney will get the benefit of the doubt and more people will vote for him.
__
To Ajay:
Is this really the idea? Who benefits? Who has the most to gain from a backlash?
Just thought I would ask.

Leave by the sword, die by the sword. Romney's campaign itself is built on falsehoods and deception – so he isn't entitled to his "outrage." And although I'd like to see the Clinton machine demolish him in the general election, I hope Republican primary voters actually nominate someone who we independents can actually consider supporting in the general election.

I think the card is fantastic. you see, I only have three problems with this religion.

first: there is no other religion on the face of the planet is so easily discredited with hard science, archeology, genealogy, logic, and documented history both secular and religious.

second: most people who think they have the only true religion tend to get the smug superiority complex. how can we expect anyone to represent the United States as a whole to cultures and religions across the world, and be respectful to their history and beliefs when he (or she) thinks they are the only one leader with the path to salvation? it's disrespectful.

third: i'm really worried that anyone would be in the White House who actually thinks that the bible should be taken somewhat literally, and that the book of Revelation's prophecy of the "end of days" is happening right now. it actually makes me ill that someone would be in control of the presidency while simultaneously trying to usher in the apocalypse. hasn't W. taught us anything? if you have an "end of the world" mentality, everything is always in panic mode. i'm tired of that.

the history of the Mormon religion (as pointed out by the card) is really messed up – but no more so than any other religion on the face of the earth. they have grown, yes... learned and adapted to the times and i find that very Darwinian of them.

What if the idea was to get more sympathy for Romney and to turn people against Huckabee in Iowa? I would not vote for either of them but it's not because of religion.

Huckabee said he admires Bolton and that was enough for me to change my mind about him; and, I think Romney is a big liar who would say or do anything to win the presidency.

I wish the Republican Party could get the candidate called "SOMEBODY ELSE."

how is this bigoted when its exactly what the Book of Mormonism says?

What a beautiful card. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Mitt.

“Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.” (2 Corinthians 4:1-2)

While I’m glad non-Mormons were exposed to a piece of history that the Mormon Church would rather bury, I also wish the exposure had been more direct without “cunning”.

This is why I am proud to be an atheist. I do not care in particular what religion a person is, but it is interesting that religious people have maintained a never-ending war of words against one another in a battle to see who will win at the end. Of course it is inevitable that this religious fervor breeds into every facet of human life–the politics we share are no different in the end than the rabid Muslims and their more obvious campaign of genocide.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the same religious that claim to be peaceful, honest, and loving of their fellow man are the same ones behind trickery like this? It's time for people to grow the hell up and learn to behave more responsibly. Clearly, just because you can claim to believe in some random god does not make you a better human being, and it never has.

Screams Huck a Bigot

I think Ben is right, the FBI needs to definately look into this. Its fraud in using our U.S. Postal Service for one, and for two, if this isn't a religious 'hate crime' against Mormons, what is? Not to mention election fraud.
Is this what our country is coming to? Attacking someone for their religious beliefs? Through our Federal Government Postal system no less.
Doesn't put whoever did this too much below the terrorists in my opinion.
It seems like too many people in America are running too many people down for their religious beliefs instead of being thankful they believe.
Can anyone see how this going on in our own country, looks to other countries?
The terrorists are probably thinking good, now Americans are fighting in their
own homeland about Religion.
Just last night in our little local paper, I read an 'opinion' letter to the Editor and when the person referred to God, they put 'g-d'..... how pathetic is that?

Here's the problem. Things like this, WORK.

The "Obama is a muslim terrorist" bogus e-mail worked.

The "Kerry was a Vietnam Coward and GW was a draft-dodging hero" worked.

They all work.

The only people who these things don't seem to work against are people who really have records. Dirty tricks serve only to insulate such folks.

The Memogate/Rather scandal, using clearly forged documents, served only to quash any further discussion of GW's service record. After all, if those records were faked, then the whole issue is bogus, right?

People in this country are so stupid and lazy they will believe anything, and will believe a rumor or mass-forwarded e-mail wihtout bothering to investigate at all.

This election will turn on nasty rumors, bogus e-mails, faux Christmas cards, and the like. It will be like 2004 only worse

What is it about this Mormon "Christian" cult/sect which buys into quotes such as these? No matter what, Romney will have to address this issue because our religious beliefs always effect our world view.

Here is the lens I read this article/these posts through: I would not be quick to categorically reject religion, but I would not be quick to uncritically accept religious beliefs either. I personally find tremendous value in reading/studying the Christian Bible, but accept that all humans fail at times, ergo, there are/will be no utopian human organizations. If we reject every organization with a stain (i.e., every organization), how do we avoid a nihilistic existence? This view can be distinguished from placing an organization on the balance and evaluating the strengths and weaknesses and, ultimately, the overall merit of that organization. Republicans should recognize that Democrats have some good ideas, and visa-versa. Informed debate on specific issues may get us farther as a society than focusing on the success of a specific political party. Likewise, we should be willing to recognize both the positive and negative contributions of a religion and build on that.

That said, I likely would have skipped over this news article and the related posts had I not recently finished reading Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven." Admittedly, about all I know of Mormonism comes from this book, but Krakauer seems to present a well researched and accurate picture of Mormonism and it's history and there are some disconcerting points. Based on that history, there are religious questions that seem fair to ask a Mormon presidential candidate: When does he/she believe it is acceptable to lie/deceive? What is their position on "bleeding the beast?" What role(s) do they or their immediate family hold within the church and what Mormon group are they affiliated with? Again, based on the history of the Mormon Church and politics as presented by Krakauer, these are fair and important questions.

If the Christmas card at hand was fraudulent or criminal, then it should be treated as such and those involved should be treated justly. However, in a democratic society, should we not examine the issues it raises?

Should anyone doubt what is meant by "white and delightsome" in Mormon scripture, please do not let a Mormon pass this off as white = pure.

White means white.

See this insightful commentary regarding Native American people by Mormon prophet Spencer W Kimball. This leaves no doubt as to what Mormons mean they speak the words "white and delightsome." You will see the word "Lamanite" which is a group of people in the LDS scriptures Book of Mormon, who Mormons believe are today's Native Americans.

(If this offends you, good, it should. If it doesn't, there is something very wrong with your sensibilities).

"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today…. The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl–sixteen–sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents–on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather….These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated. "
-Spencer W Kimball, Mormon Prophet

Even though I am not a Romney fan, I think it would be nice for him to win the same way it would be for Hilary to win. To let people see that neither one of them is the devil. What is interesting is those who feel that way are the same group of people, namely the conservatives who call themselves “real Christians.”

The only people that would believe Romney would send these cards out are the same people that would believe that John Kerry would intentionaly say that American troops are stupid. Both men are career politicians and would not make mistakes like this.

Wait a minute, I thought the GOP was the PARTY OF INCLUSION? The Republican candidates are trying to drive a wedge between voters on a non-issue like religion or say the paternity of McCain's adopted children? Ohh my. And the sad truth is there are few members of the Republican party smart enough not to be taken in by this play to their deep seated xenophobia and need to hate others.

To Defense Dem:

The quote is "exceedingly fair and white", not "exceedingly white". If you understand white to be "not black, asian, etc" then where is the controversy? Were the Jews not a white race?

To Kerry: The context of the quote is still the same. I never mentioned anything about race, so there is no need for your racial hyper-sensitivity regarding this issue. Further, I didn't write the Book Of Mormon so if you want to challenege anyone regarding that passage, then go to the 'celelstial kingdom' and discuss it with Ol' Joseph Smith.

I am not sure why you brought the Jews into this. But the controversy, duh, is that these are religious views that Romney holds. Mormonism is not Christian, no mater what kind of spin any of you put on it. My Bible says one faith, one God, one baptism. The Mormons claim Jesus did not die on the cross. My Bible says differently. And because these doctrines are contrary to traditional Christian belief, many people who identify themselves as Christian will not vote for a Mormon. For the record, people are sworn into office by the Bible because that Book is the religious standard in America, always has been and assumably always will be.

Yoy are obviously an obverzealous Mormon or sympathizer. That's fine. But please know that your sentimentality and emotionalism perhaps would be better served at the polls or on the campaign stump with your candidate, Romney, whose campiagn is gonna sink faster than the Titanic.

what is it about south carolina that republican candidates get "swift-boated"?
that is the same thing that happened to john mccain in 2000, with the vicious lies perpetrated about him as with this card...very interesting...looking like romney's about to take iowa and new hampshire though...

I'd like to tsk-tsk, but as a Muslim in this incredibly ignorant country, it's hard for me to feel bad for Mormons or Romney. Probably because I've read and heard the words that have the GOP and Mormons have used for black people like me, for Liberals like me, for Muslims like me. You reap what you sow. You want to support a guy who is for persecuting someone because they are in the minority fine. Have fun with that. Good luck.

The GOP peddles in hate and the faithful minions lap it up instead of actually thinking for themselves. How else to do you explain the stupidity that these people spout of Obama being "half-Muslim". I mean, can someone be "half-Lutheran"? Or when they insist he's Muslim because of his name. As if large chunks of the populations of Palestine, Egypt, or Syrian aren't some sort of Christian. Willful ignorance and suppression of critical thinking skills is what the GOP wants in their voters and they got them.

To all the LDS people posting, you're wasting your time. The type of people who'd bash your religion (especially anonymously on a comment board) are not the type of people who are interested in actually learning. Do you realize that those people would rather quote at me, some hatemonger's site, and in the same breath, when I explain a passage from the Qur'an tell me I'm being selective? Nevermind that they have no idea about Islam and have never actually talked to a Muslim before. Nope, some hateful lies on a website hold more water than a discussion from an actual Muslim.

Dee Cook, you may THINK you are being honest, but you are not being FACTUAL. Isn't there something in the Bible about not bearing false witness against your neighbor? If you say that someone else believes something when you've been told time and time again that they don't, wouldn't this fall into that category?

However, since it didn't sink in the first, or second, or third time...what you said is NOT what we believe nor is what you said the doctrine or teachings of the Church. Period!!! End of discussion. ANYONE in the church can say ANYTHING that they want, and I mean anyone. Do you understand that? That doesn't make it doctrine and doesn't mean we have to all believe it.

Actually if you've been told that's not what they believe and you still say they do then you're also breaking the commandment about not lying. But hey, isn't repentance great?

A synonym for "fair" is beautiful.

A synonym for "white" is morally pure.

The Book of Mormon quotes the prophet Nephi as seeing a beautiful and pure woman who becomes Christ's mother.

Do other Christians disagree that Mary was not morally pure? Maybe it was Nephi's opinion that Mary was beautiful (ie fair) but let's not smear Mary by being offended by the idea that she was a pretty girl.

This card plays on people's willful ignorance. You can choose to see racism in anything. Anything. The passage quoted from the Book of Mormon is a portion of the Book of Mormon that records Christ's birth – since the Book of Mormon is ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST. In the quoted passage Mary is referred to as morally pure and beautiful in synonymous words.

I don't know whose the bigger fool: The people who sent out this card with the idea that this passage is somehow racist or the people who have read it and assume it must be racist. Insert rolling eyes here.

Instead, what it brings to light is that the Book of Mormon is, I repeat, another testament of Jesus Christ.

huck says that if everything romney said about him was true, huck would not even vote for himself, well, if everything that was said about the mormons was true, there would be no mormons. wake up people and see the brainwashing that antimormon material feeds you. that is exactly what it is doing feeding you with goofy things like this. this is beyond obvious that it is antimormon material. i am an african american in the south and i love my mormon neighbors. honest and accepting me as a neighbor. i know they would not be ashamed to sit by me in church or have me over for dinner, because i have been, i cant say that about huck.

"It is sad and unfortunate that this kind of deception and trickery has been employed," Holley said. "There is absolutely no place for it in American politics."

DECEPTION AND TRICKERY... but lots of places for them in American business and American government; American business shapes the ethics or lack of ethics in American government, and American government mirrors the ethics or lack of ethics in American politics. Don't blame the church or whatever group sent out the fraudulent cards; blame the political culture that we have created within our own country; the corrupted culture that grows stronger with each passing day.

When JFK (A Roman Catholic) ran everyone was terrified that he would make decisions by the bible and influence of the Pope, and he was asked about this, and he answered.
Now Mormonism is a odd form of Christianity which holds beliefs that no other branch of Christianity does; and if Romney is a devote Mormon then it is absolutely fair to ask him questions about the beliefs he holds and how they might affect his decisions in the white house.
For him to call 'foul' on this, saying that its slanderous that people are reading quotes which he, as a mormon, professes to believe in is ridiculous.
To me, it sounds like he's hoping that most voters don't know anything about mormonism so they won't care to ask any questions.

I also think it's from Huckster. He can't challenge anyone on past performance because he was pen palls with convicted rapist Wayne DuMond.

"Dear Wayne. . . . My desire is that you be released from prison," the governor wrote. "I feel now that parole is the best way. . . ."

I'm in Charleston SC and haven't received any political mailings.

Everyone knows Mitt is a Morman.

This will have a negative impact on Huckster, beacuse he can't stand up and fight for his own convictions and has to attack his opponents with strange post cards.

I'm sure most people receiving this card will be more offended by the person who sent it to their house and disrupted their holiday.

I do not believe it beneath Mitt to have sent these cards and then deny it.He seems a little less than honest to me. I guess because big business men can put the screws tous with a smile and we feel like they did us a favor.think about it.

To Al from San Francisco,

Are you kidding me? How ignorant can you possibly be? Romney deserves to have his religion attacked by the worst kind of bigot because he has, "Run a dirty campaign"? Romney has run a variety of tactful compare and contrast ads in which he simply states the facts of political positions and records.

How you can even compare the two shows your complete lack of intelligence. Romney is perhaps the most presidential candidate that is running on either side. His opponents know that and the only ammunition they have is to bash his religion. It makes me sick. What's next for these good Christian bigots? I shudder to think.

I don't like Mitt Romney or the Mormons but anyone who knows anything about the Mormon Church would knows that a Temple would never do this. I sense Karl Rove's invisible hand here. At least it is in the spirit of the man who has done more damage to Democracy than anyone in the history of the republic.

how are people even taking the republican candidates seriously at this point? i am from massachusetts and (1) can assure you romney was the worst governor we have seen in a long time, spending less that 100 days per year in the state (2) have conservative beliefs but am consistently disgusted by republican politicians.

BUSH IS NOT A REPUBLICAN HE IS A BIGOT!
IMPEACH!

The Book of Mormon. People need to know about it and read it. If you are dumb enough to elect Mitt Romney, you might be wise to know what you are getting in to.

This is amazing. Put a shiny enough polish on any turd and Americans will vote for it.

Wake up people.

For the past 30 years every piece of anti Mormon propaganda that I ever seem came from a Baptist Book store. Just go into one and look for yourself.
If you want to discover what Mormonism is all about go to the Bible.
Look at Acts 3 verses 19,20, and 21. God is telling you straight out that in the days of refreshing he will send Jesus Christ again to preach upon you. Why because
he cares about all his spirit children on earth. If you look closely at Bible verses in the New Testement you will discover that the Mormon Church is just a restoration of the Church Jesus Christ established almost 2,000 years ago. Jesus Christ himself sits at the head of the Mormon Church and all its Doctrine came directly from him and he directs the Church today.
If you want to know what Mormon temples are about go to the last two verses of the old Testement Malachi 4 verses 5 & 6. The salvation of all mankind from Adam down to the judgement day are in these verses for everyone that wants them.
When Jesus was baptized who baptized him and by what priesthood was he baptized. John the Baptist held the Levelical Priesthood from his father the High Priest of Isreal. Then God mentioned from heaven "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" and then the Holy Ghost decinded upon him like a dove.
God's Priesthood and the authority to baptize has always came from God and Jehovah who is Jesus Christ in the flesh from Adam on down. It does not come from Mankind and has never came from mankind. The people that think this
will find themselves where they do not want to be on judgement day and it is not far away. You can see it coming in the news you see every day.
There were Black people in the Church in the early days and there were Black
people that went west in the early days with the Mormons. Some held the Priesthood for awhile until Jesus Christ asked them not to use it at the time for some reason unknown but he gave it back in 1978. all you have to do is look at the hatred the Black people have to deal with in the South from the White people
and I think you will have the reason. When I lived in the south in the early 90's I attended the Jackson Mississippi ward. There were Black people who attended the ward and there were Black people who held the High Priesthood. There were a few White people in the Ward but most departed and attended other wards in other cities because they did not want to attend any Church with a Bloack person.
The Book of Mormon is a 2nd witness to the bible in line with the Law of two witnesses. Unlike the Bible which has endured many translations throughout the years the Book of Mormon came with one and only one Translation by use of a Urim and Thumin from Jehovah. The term is in the Bible. Look it up.

This sounds like the same low-class non-sense that George W. Bush pulled in South Carolina by insinuating that John McCain had adopted a dark skinned Asian child. That "Chrsitmas Card" showed McCain's family and highlighted the little girl, who appeared to have been enhanced to appear darker. This just shows the contempt that many Republicans have for Southerners in general and South Carolinians in particular. We deserve better than the GOP has to offer.

Why does religion matter anyway? Is it not bigotry to judge someone by their race, skin color, RELIGION or gender? You would not stand out there and scream that you won't vote for someone because of the color of their skin, so why is it OK to discriminate on the basis of religion? Maybe Sir Elton John was right when he said that we should abolish religions. After all, all relgions do is create more hate, diision and death.

Theology occurs only in the mind. We can't see heaven through our telescopes, we can't photograph demons, we can't know the names of the angels, and we don't know why God is thought of as male. There are a thousand holy books associated with this faith or that one, and they all give different answers to every question. None of us has been to heaven or the afterlife and come back with photographs.

So, if one faith says that after we die we go to Jupiter and the other faith say that we go to Pluto then who among us can prove the truth of either statement. If one says the chief angel's name is Leon and the other say's it's really Elroy, how can we argue with each other over "facts" that occur only in the mind and no where else? The only thing we can say for sure is that most of us do not practice the true faith, because there is no church or faith that a majority of Americans belong to.

This Christmas Card is not about theology, Mormonism, Christianity, race, racism, the virginity of Mary, or the color of her skin (she probably looked like a middle-eastern woman since that's what she was). This card is about politics of the dirty variety. It was intended to stir up the hornets' nest that has all you hornets buzzing about with rage.

It could have been sent by supporters of any of the Republican candidates, but most likely it was sent by the supporters of someone who would benefit from it in SC. Who could that be?

Average of recent popularity polls in SC
Poll Date Huckabee Romney Thompson McCain Giuliani Paul
12/18 25.8 19.3 13.5 13.0 12.8 6.3

If Romney support deteriorated, who would be the beneficiary? Presumably Huckabee, Thompson, or Giuliani. We can speculate that supporters of one of those three are the culprit, but the candidate himself may have no knowledge of the prank. If the Romney campaign fell apart, who would get most of the benefit?

maybe she was fair and white, who are you guys to press people on their religion. I have to hear how jesus was black all the time.

Keep in mind, it has also been alleged that Huckabee was a keynote speaker in an anti-Mormon rally in Salt Lake City in 1998, under the auspices of the Southern Baptist Convention. His ilk are notorious for lying and waiting to deceive. Anti-Mormon stuff like this gets circulated many times to Mormon's doorsteps quite often. Now they are taking it to another level. These neferious junk peddlers are now trying to subterfuge the Presidential run. The perpetrators shuold be prosecuted for defamation.

"white" = "pure" in the Book of Mormon. This was also the connotation of the word back in the 1800's in the literature of the time.

Oh,oh. Republicans attacking a fellow republican. How low can you go?

Every religion is a question of belief – and thus of controversy.

It comes as no surprise to me that politicians from a party which has made religion its creed come under scrutiny and attack for their beliefs!

Nonetheless, it is not so much important what Romney believes (he's a Mormon), but what he thinks about religion (that it is a public matter):
Americans who are concerned about their religion (Catholics, Evangelicals, Mormons, Muslims or any other religious community) would do well to vote for a president who does not mix faith and public affairs at all.

Religion is a matter of religious belief – Politics is a matter of political preference. Please don't mix the two! Every candidate and party who does, bears their own responsibility for faith-based controversies...

We are looking more and more like the Sunni's and Shiites. When will the homicide bombings start because one particular brand of Christianity doesn't like the other?

No, Kerry in San Diego, Judaism is not a race, it's a religion. Jews have lived in many countries, in Europe, South America, North America, even India and China, and their skin hasn't always been "white." In any case, the controversy is about the fact that the Republicans in South Carolina continue to practice politics at a gutter level where one's opponent is destroyed by any means possible. Push polling is an art down there. I know very little about Mormonism, but I wouldn't not vote for him because he is a Mormon, but because he is flip-flopper of monumental proportions.

To Defense Dem:

The quote is "exceedingly fair and white", not "exceedingly white". If you understand white to be "not black, asian, etc" then where is the controversy? Were the Jews not a white race?

Okay, I miss out the part that says the card is from the Romney family.

It's one thing to frighten people with the Mormon religion, but it's another thing to send out a card, claiming it's from Romney while it is not. Now, that would be wrong and should be investigated.

Though it is dirty, Romney deserves it, because he has run a very negative campaign against his rivals, dem or repub. He is simply not presidential.

The card may not be from the Romney's but what it says is true.

The Mormon God is a polygamist god and Mitt Romney's goal is to become a GOD and spend eternity in the celestial kingdom with Ann Romney and all the other goddess wives he will have.

Honest, this really is what Mormons believe!

Why are you get so worked up over this? Can anyone know for certainty how many wives God has, so why fight over this? So what if God has many wives, are you going to say no to Him? Maybe that explains why Mormons see nothing wrong with a man having many wives. It's just a distraction. There are more important issues to deal with here.

Craig Grant in Carlsbad:

The theology and veracity of the card are irrelevant. Mormons are comfortbale with the doctrinal differences of evangelicals and are not interested in debating obscure, out of context qoutations from the 1800's.

The reason the FBI is now investigating this malicious attempt is because it is illegal. Make no mistake, should this trace back to Huckabee in any way his run will be finished, by law.

Anyone who is wondering what the big deal does not appreciate how devious this was.

I'm completely speechless but what I just read.

Someone has broken Federal election law by attributing funding for these cards to the Mormon Church. It is interesting that the FBI is now investigating. Should this trace back to Huck in ANY way his candidacy would be disqualified by law. Even if it is just a supporter, don't we have to consider Huckabee's campaign to be unethical and controversial should this in any way affect voting in SC? If he wins SC we won't be able to escape the feeling that his side cheated badly.

Is anyone blasting Romney's "neg ads" seriously going ot be able to live down what has just been illegally done by Huckabee's camp? WOW. Unbelievable.

good job huck I was at your anti mormon speech in 98...next time come with facts cuz it seems like you cant respond back to the truth with your issues as governor. Mitt is statin facts congrats on the low blow card

A bumbling attempt to smear Romney. The card tries to trick people into thinking that the Mormon church is pushing and funding parts of Romney's campaign. But I checked. The church website doesn't say a word about the campaign. I asked some Mormon friends, and they say their church does not suggest who to vote for, and doesn't allow church facilities, activities, or funds to be used to support political candidates. They say they feel free to be a member of any party, and to vote for any candidate. Best evidence of that, I suppose, is the fact that the senate majority leader, Harry Reid, is both a Mormon and a life-long Democrat.

IF Romney wins, does he take the Oath of Office with his hand on The Book of Mormon? That's an important question and goes to the heart of the matter.

I blieve that he should do just that. An oath given on someone else's Book of Faith is worthless. If Mitt Romney believes the Book of Mormon, then his oath should be given upon it.

Or perhaps there should be no Holy Book at all, since it is really the Constitution of the United States that the President swears to uphold.

If you really think a Baptist is going to vote for Romney you probably believe in the tooth fairy, Santa, and Rush Limbaugh too. Bwahahaha

Personally I'm an Obama supporter, but I am saddened by the religious bigotry so evident in the sending of this card (and, sadly, in many of these posts). This is obviously an attempt to smear Romney and portray Mormons as both racist and wacko through the emphasis of words which are, quite frankly, probably more figurative than anything, and a 100+ year old quote which is by no means accepted doctrine among Mormons (and as others have pointed out, Mormons are hardly secretive about what their doctrine really is).

I had the opportunity while in Salt Lake City to attend a few meetings held by the LDS Genesis group, an organization formed within the Mormon church in the early 1970's for the benefit of its black members. I learned some fascinating things. At a time when many whites in America were blatantly racist, Joseph Smith put up members of a needy black family in his home for an extended period of time, donated some of his personal property to help buy the freedom of a black brother's son, and ordained at least one black man as a general authority in the Mormon church. His friendship toward blacks is part of the reason why many whites of his time hated him. I have many black friends who are devout members of the Mormon faith, who have encountered no racism there.

In the meantime I find Huckabee's behavior to be far from Christian–shall we talk about his response to Bhutto's assassination as an opportunity to spread fear and prejudice towards Pakistanis, never mind actual facts or common sense? The man claims to be a Christian? Has he ever read what Jesus actually taught?

So, first I hear that Mormons are so secretive and "cult"-ish and won't let anyone know anything about their religion. Then I hear that Mormons are so pushy and overbearing with their religion and trying to shove it down everyone's throats. If we're going to have oversimplified generalizations, can we at least make them consistent?

An exceedingly white Mary? OK. When one examines the teachings of the Mormon church, its hard to imagine anyone actually believing in that nonsense. Its totally alien to the Christian Bible. What's even more troubling is we have a Mormon actually seeking the highest office in the land, and leading in many polls! Mormonism will not play well in the Bible Belt South, which can make or break a campaign. The more liberal eastern seaboard states may embrace Romney but once more of these revealing cards are sent out, and a broader discussion of Romney's actual religious beliefs is undertaken, he'll flop. No doubt about it. Bizarre religious views aside, Romney is unfit to be president. He's a hopeless flip flopper without even an iota of character. He looks stiff, unlikeable and overly rehearsed. And he stubbornly clings to the embattled George Bush as if he's the pope. Give me a break please.

"Maybe Romney "saw" MLK marching with Jesus and his dad down in South America?"

LOL, mormons 'see' a lot of things...they are following a guy who was chased out of a jail in illinois ( for fraud, people were about to kill him ), he ran out of the second floor of a jail in nauvoo (sp?) illinois, ran west, wrote a bizarro book to 'complement' the Bible *cough cough* – and we are not even getting to the 'own your own planet' or the 'heritage of polygymy' – yes, those mormons 'see' a lot of things, like i said....

anyway, ron paul sent the mormon Christmas cards out i bet LOL

A good working definition of a cult is a religion that keeps a large part of its rites and beliefs secrets. Mormonism fits this to the bill. It is only in hushed words that you hear about the magic underwear, the death pacts, the weird "baptisms" of dead people... and, hell, my friends parents couldn't even attend his wedding (because he is Mormon and they aren't!)... don't believe me? Try to walk into any Mormon "temple" and see if you are cheerily invited in...

Everyone . . . everywhere . . . ought to immediately condemn fraud. It is amazing to me that people feel like they have to steal his identity and claim to send cards sponsored by groups that would never do such a thing in order to try to undermine the man who is most qualified to lead our country.

Shocking, sickening, and it ought to be investigated and prosecuted by the FBI as a religious hate crime and as a fraud. It is likely with the right incentives law enforcement can track the origin and whoever sent those out ought to spend 15 years in jail, and a lifetime if he or she ends up affecting the election and costing my kids the chance of living in a country governed by a man as incredible, articulate, brilliant, selfless, and noble as Mitt Romney.

Dirty tricks will serve noone this campaign cycle. I think Romney will get the benefit of the doubt and more people will vote for him.

This is probably a good time for people to get an overview of Mormonism from both sides, favorable and critical. For favorable information you can check out LDS.org and Mormon.org, for critical information you can check out MRM.org and IRR.org.

The fact is that the Mormon Church today takes no official position on whether God is polygamous or whether God the Father was married to his spirit daughter Mary, so don't be deceived by the impression that the Orson Pratt quote is entirely false.

Really? Why is everyone offended by this? When I read it I really cracked up. Maybe Mary was an albino from the Middle East. You never know. Yeah, an "exceedingly fair and white" Mary as funny as all the white Jesuses on crosses in Catholic churches or the blond Jesus depicted in evangelical Protestant literature, and the Latino and black Jesuses that appear throughout Christian churches in Latin America and Africa, respectfully.

Pretty much all religions have things about them that are absurd or offensive. Personally, I don't think Mormonism is far below Scientology as far as whacked-out beliefs are concerned. I'm sure most Mormons are kind and normal people, but, like the Catholic church (in which I was brought up), there are a lot of cultish elements to the sect.

I'm so sick of this culture of political correctness, and the Right is as bad about it as the Left is. Watch the Southpark episode about Mormons. It's pretty funny.If I were Romney, instead of whining about being attacked (alas, Romney is usually the candidate that can't do anything BUT attack others), I'd say "My religion, like most religions has its quirks and archaic worldviews, which I recognize as artifacts of their time instead of holding them to be perpetual truths. The culture has changed since the Book of Mormon was written but it's core values are still relevant today."

Naturally, I would never expect for Romney to say something halfway intelegent; but until he clarifies his stance on these issues instead of trying to divert attention from them, I can only assume he actually believes them and is covering them up. Which is kinda scary...

For those who don't get why his is wrong, it's because it's claiming to be from Romney and paid for by the Boston Temple. The people who actually are behind it aren't being honest and forthright about who they are and what their motives are.

Ths is a grand slam victory for Romney, his camp has been wishing someone would do this for months. But you’ll have to excuse me, I’m not sick and twisted enough to politicize bigotry. Huckabee’s embarrassments with Pakistan are nothing compared to this blunder, whether or not he is behind it, people know it is his supporters and this makes him look really bad.

I’m not sure which cute little piece of propaganda I love more, this cozy anti-Mormon smear or those lovely pamphlets the Nazis distributed in 1936 that warn people about the evil Jews and how to spot one by the size of their noses. One wonders if any Jews ran for office in Germany and what sorts or propaganda was unleashed then. I wonder if Huck’s Gestapo paid extra for the full-color glossy sheets.

You have to admire what the “christian” South has gift-wrapped for us over the years. The Slavery movement, The KKK and now this anti-semetic type anti-Mormonism. A real class act. Mormons need to bring the hammer down on this stuff. The NAACP & Anti-Defmation League would.

Americans, and especially responsible evangelical christians, will reject this utterly. Huckabee needs to immediately condemn this act of bigotry or risk a backlash that could finish his campaign.

I think I hear the devil cackling somewhere.

Well, if you ask me it performs a much needed public service... Namely, pointing out how ridiculous the Morman religion AND FOR THAT MATTER, ALL RELIGION is.

The sooner we cast off the yoke of religion and focus that recovered energy, time and money on the real problems facing mankind, the better.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Mormon religion teach that when they die they become "gods" and get their own planet? If this is true, I think I'll convert and choose a planet that has hundreds of Super-Walmarts!

Just a few thoughts by a Mormon, born and raised on the East Coast....

These cards and attacks don't offend me, they seem somewhat comical because of their oddly presented context. Fortunately, most Americans know personally a Mormon, either a neighbor, a friend, or a work associate. Most know that they could ask their Mormon friend anything and you'll get a straight answer.

Those who say things like "the Mormons need to come clean and tell us their secrets" sound kind of funny. What exactly do you want to know? We are Christian. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as all Christians do. We have another text of ancient scripture (for all to read) called the Book of Mormon that supports the Bible by it's further affirmation that Jesus is the Christ.

Ironically, those who think Mormons are some secret cult and say things like: "come clean", "they just say they're Christian as a cover", "Mitt needs to fess up what he believes", look really silly. When Mitt said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior "on National TV., who are you to tell him he doesn't really mean it? Many of those who cry foul sadly won't even touch the Book of Mormon themselves to even find out what it's all about. If you're going to spend time ridiculing beliefs, for your own benefit, at least do some objective research.

For anyone interested in finding out what this Book is all about you can actually get a free copy by logging onto http://www.mormon.org. That's how secret it is!

If Mormon's are secret, then it's an odd secret with nearly $13 million members worldwide, and humanitarian value of donations in recent years exceeding $700 million dollars to causes like Tsunami recovery, hunger in Africa, building villages etc. etc. etc.

Maybe Romney "saw" MLK marching with Jesus and his dad down in South America?

I like Mormans but they sure believe in some weird fiction.

People in SC are not going to vote for him anyway.

I am from the Phillipines and a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and as a convert I know first hand if the church is a cult or not. A cult claim that he is God himself. Joseph Smith never claim to be such. The church is not his but God's. Honestly, we are not supposed to explain to those people who think we are not ' Christians" because the scriputre says "ye shall know them, by their fruits",, but it's like God says, if they are good fruits, they are mine, surely, if they are bad fruits,.......well, it;s that simple. Good tree bringeth forth godd fruits. Amen

Well... he is a mormon, and it is what mormons believe... so, its actually kinda sad he'd deny it... cna't have faith both ways. FLIP FLOP again!

Hear ye, Hear ye!

Please read the Book of Mormon and and read the whole chapter 11 of 1 Nephi
It's a very beautiful and powerful chapter...Just don't focus only on verse 13...

The summary of the whole chapter is that -

Nephi sees the Spirit of the Lord and and is shown in vision the Tree of Life-He sees the mother of the Son of God and learns of the condescension of God-He sees the baptism, ministry, and crucifixion of the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ)-He sees also the call and minstry of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This tells us God loves Nephi because he is obedient, humble and meek, submissive, forgiving, kind, compassionate and God-fearing. He was given the opportunity to see visions such as the heavens being opened...

v. 13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a "virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

v. 14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and and angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi what beholdest thou?

v. 15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins".

v. 18 And he said unto me,: Behold, the "virgin" whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

v. 19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the "Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying; Look!

v. 20 And I looked and beheld this virgin again, bearing a "child (Jesus) in her arms.

We owe a lot to the people whoever sent those cards to the Republicans in behalf of the Romney family, whether they are trying to destroy Romney or not. Whoever they are, thank you very much...Because of this, the minds of the people will be opened to curiosity and will read the Book of Mormon. This book goes hand in hand with the Holy Bible and supports the evidence that we have a Living God and that He sent his only beloved Son thru Mary who was blessed to bear the Son of God. The Book of Mormon is true as the Holy Bible. And whatever knowledge you gain from that book will rise with you in the resurrection and you have more advantage in the world to come...Donot judge the book by its own cover. Like the Holy Bible, its the word of God so it is not to be ridiculed. Remember our Lord Jesus Christ had suffered with pain because of the ridicules and false accusations just because he claims He is the Son of God. The pain and sufferings inflicted to our Lord were not enough that the unbelievers had to beat him with thousands of lashes and eventually crucified Him. Please take time to read. You will learn more about Him. I promise you this will bring peace, blessing and happiness to yourself, to your home and family.

Sean Allen–I respect your personal opinion, but truly, if you want to know more about "Mormonism," then, get on the http://www.lds.org and find the anwers for yourself. The fact is, as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (namenamed Mormons) like myself are more than willing to share share our beliefs. Foremost, to that belief is-"we" believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of our Heavenly Father. He is the Saviour and Redeemer of Mankind, the Judge, and the Creator of the world, as stated by John (John 1:1-3).

On the other hand, for you to say, "Mormons treat their "religion" with extreme secrecy" -is nothing, but a misconception due to lacked of understanding. I encourage you "my brother, " to search and find out for yourself, if you really want to know. I've been there, and I am convert myself. What else do you need to know about the Mormons? Basicly, as stated in the Articles of Faith #13, "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

How is it "Deceptive" and "Trickery" if it's quoted from the book that is the foundation of his faith? Is it a false quote? Is that quote not in that Book of Mormon? If it is in the Book of Mormon, then where's the deception? Is he saying he's not Mormon after all?

Seems like he should live up to his religion's craziness.

How stupid are people.The IQ of South Carolina must be at the boll weevil level.Isn't that where George Bush spread those false rumors about Mccain fathering an illegitimate black child.The only thing nobody knew about was Strom Thurmond fathering a black child with a housekeeper.The only thing that does not get out in South Carolina is the truth.

No doubt this is the smut work of the Giuliani campaign just as Rove did in South Carolina implying that McCain had a black child out of wedlock. This is despicable and the media should be all over finding out who is behind it.....no doubt they will be their normal lazy selves and not find out anything until some reporter researches it years later for Vanity Fair....

I'm sure this is one of Huck's dirty tricks. I've been to Baptist's meetings and this is how the MINISTERS preach their people. They teach the gospel of hate.

This is just despicable... Why anyone would use someone's private beliefs against them is beyond me. Whoever did this should be ashamed of themselves, no matter what the general impression of the Mormon religion is... An impression that, more often than not, is completely off-base. I'm not Mormon myself but I do know quite a few and I assure you what the public thinks about the Mormons is mostly dead wrong.

As a direct decendent from one of Mormon's great apostate families (Jedediah Grant and Heber J Grant – First Mayor of Salt Lake City and 2nd Longest Serving President of LDS) here are a few observations;

1) It had to have been composed by someone who is either a Mormon or who left the Church as it has too much inside knowledge to have been invented by an outsider.

2) The statements are true and not taken out of context that would substantially change their meaning – which makes the observation that it is really dirty politics odd. How is it dirty politics to truthfully state what Mormons believe and why isn't the Romney repsonse "sure its true so what?". Because they know how really offensive their mickey mouse beliefs are to the confessional church (i.e. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox Christians who, while having different emphasis are basically united behind a series of creeds over the last 1700 years.) Other Christians like the gnostics have existed outside of this fairly homogeneous church but the Mormons are the only ones that have tried to camoflauge it. Again if you think it really is from God why hide it? None of the comments above allege that any of the statements untrue

3) For those unfamiliar with Orson Pratt who was one of Smith's closest and earliest confidents and was in the so called "Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" this citation from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Pratt) gives the details of how he objected to Polygamy and was excommunicated. He later flip flopped decided he now liked polygamy was reinstated and had 10 wives and 45 children (http://jared.pratt-family.org/orson_histories/list_orson.html). He wasn't just an ordinary flip flopper however he had a clever mind and became the chief public advocate for it and published essays about it. This flip flopper was a keen businessman and invented the odometer.

Willard Mitt Romney"s is Orson Pratt's great great great grand nephew. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt-Romney_family) The essence of these beliefs is that god was once a man like us became a god had polygamous relationships and that we too are destined, if we follow the right path to become gods like Yahweh.

All of the above is factual and cites well established sources, most of them from the Pratt-Romney family. How is it a dirty trick to put this correct information forward and why are the Romney's so angry that it is talked about publicly? Flip flopping has been a well established historical fact of the Pratt Romney family. Pratt was against polygamy and later changed his position and was rewarded with a senior position in the LDS Church. Why is everyone upset when someone changes their position? We all make mistakes and the fact that changing our positions simply happens to elevate us to power should not be taken that it is not a sincere flip flop. Why is prospering from our flip flops a bad thing?

I'm still perplexed by the people who will change there vote based on whether or not a person believes that god had multiple wives. I'm more concerned with the people who don't believe in evolution.... like most of the Republicans...

But did Obama make any cracks about running for Lezident?

http://www.lezident.com

It keeps coming up.

Gotta be a fundamentalist evangelical Christian behind this mean trick against Romney. I'm a Mormon myself and some of these so-called Christians have established an entire anti-Mormon industry? Don't believe me? Just do a Google search with the keywords "Mormon cult" and you will see what I mean. It's disgusting really. Rather than focusing their energies on practicing the tenets of their own faith, they seek to tear down the faith of others. They claim it is done in love, but it is actually the furthest thing from love. They even picket outside Mormon general conferences and yell obscene things as our little children walk by. I'm glad in a way that their antics are coming to light due to Romney's candidacy. Maybe they will quit using their pulpits to preach hate against the Mormons.

Gee, who would have thought that the party of gay-haters, Muslim-haters and atheist-haters also hated Mormons?

Seriously. This kind of attack is disgusting and wrong, but it's hard to feel sorry for Mitt Romney, because this is exactly the kind of thing he foists on God knows how many other religious minorities. There's nothing unfair about making him play in the sandbox he helped build.

Sounds like just more examples of Reverend Huckabee and Leftist McCain's push-polling bigotry moving up to the next level as they get even more desperate ....too bad they can't be for EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL regardless of race/RELIGION/ethnicity etcetera....hate mongors.

To Sean Allen:
Romeny has made it clear that his religion is important to him but that he as a presidential candiate will not answer questions about doctrines of his faith. Instead he refers those questions to be answered by his Church Leaders, Whom will gladly answer any questions asked of them or they woudl gladly send to your home two missionaries to answer your questions. The one thing Mormons are not is secretive, that is one of many slurs made by evangelical preachers which are false about the Mormon religion. But Southern Baptist ministers attack Jews, Catholics and any other religion that is not theirs. it is why Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist Religion because of their intolerance.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is a 12 Million member church that has many well known members you can see them all at http://www.famousmormons.net it is a church lead by their members and there is no paid clergy. it is all volunteer.
The worst place to get your information on the Mormon Religion is from your church Pastor or from a friend who gets their information from their church Pastor.
If Romney wins the nomination it will get real ugly for him as the evangelical community whom he is trying to court for some reason will go all out to prevent a Mormon from becoming President.

Sure, sending it out with an obviously fake name under the pretenses of being from the Romney Campaign is dirty, but people should be aware of what Mitt Romney believes, or at least claims to believe.

Mormons believe that the Native Americans descended from Jews (described as "white and delightsome" by the Book of Mormon). The ancestors of the Native Americans, according to the Mormons, were wicked, and God cursed them with dark skin. Later in the book, they commit genocide and wipe out the righteous white Jews, who had been visited by Jesus after his crucifixion. If the Native Americans repent and follow the Mormon religion, the Book of Mormon promises they will become "white and delightsome" - er, this was changed in 1981 to read "pure and delightsome."

People should be paying attention to what Mitt Romney believes. Until 1978, the Mormon religion was officially racist. Would you want a Scientologist in the White House? How about a member of a UFO cult? It's absolutely essential to examine exactly what a candidate believes, especially if they are members of a religion with beliefs far outside the mainstream religious community.

The original Virgin Mary was black. The only reason some people think that she was white is because of the Michaelangelo's paintings in which he used his own white family members as substitutes for the black Virgin Mary, Jesus, etc.

To Sean Allen:

There is no secrecy in Mormonism, but as in ancient Christianity, there are sacred teachings that can't be understood until one understands and lives by foundational doctrines. You don't enroll in calculus until you've mastered algebra.

For example, how much does the Bible record of what Jesus taught his disciples during the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension? (Answer: almost nothing). Why? Because what he taught them was too sacred to be written and published.

The Book of Mormon also gives several examples where prophets were shown and told things that they were forbidden to write.

Thus Christ said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6)

Likewise Paul wrote to his converts at Corinth:
"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)

Why do you demand that we "come clean" with all that is sacred to us when you so obviously reject the foundation?

Almost every Sunday Latter-day Saints meet openly in 24,475 local congregations, and the public is always invited. Even you are invited, as long as you don't disrupt the meeting with envy, strive, or division.

There you can observe us partake of the emblems of the body and blood of Christ, promising to take his name upon ourselves, to always remember him, and to keep his commandments. There you will learn what Latter-day Saints really are - devout followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.

To find the location and meeting time of the LDS congregation nearest your home, go to mormon.org and click on "Worship with us."

hthalljr'gmail'com

Anyone with half a brain knows the Temples do not pay for anything, have nothing to do with money and no one 'lives' there to send out cards for anyone. There is no religion and no secrets to anyone who is smart enough to just READ. There is no secrecy to the Mormon faith. Secrecy in the Temples, yes, and if you don't like it, don't think about it. It is just that simple. No funny business, no tomfoolery, no weird happenings. Some people just believe what they hear and are not smart enough or open minded enough to let people practice religion as they see fit. So sue us.

Why does South Carolina get so nasty? Remember the anonymous calls about McCain's "black" daughter in 2000? Good grief!

There is also no place in national politics for the member of a religious fringe group. By the LDS Church's own reckoning, less than two percent of Americans are LDS Church members. One must assume that the majority of Americans are
cognizant of the fact that Joseph Smith perpetrated the greatest of hoaxes upon the American public. All religious doctrine has been written and rewritten so many times through the course of history that none is truly genuine, but the Book of Mormon is clearly a fraud.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). If anyone has any questions about our beliefs, I would be happy to answer them. I don't know who sent out these cards, but my guess is someone who supports another candidate – not any of the candidates themselves. Most concerns about any faith come stem from unanswered questions and misunderstandings. I don't claim to know everything about other faiths, and I would be happy to answer tough questions or any questions at all about my own. I don't fear people finding out what my church teaches, and if I had a question about another faith, I would ask a member of that faith, so I invite others to ask me any questions they have about my own. I would rather explain than leave it to others who may think they know, or who may just be repeating what they have heard, to explain. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, everyone!

Let's not forget that the Mormon religion is a religion that was built on the belief that blacks were less than and inferior. Blacks were considered evil and punished by God with black skin.

Reply to Sean Allen:

I don't know where you get the idea that Mormons are secretive. Have you ever heard of Mormon missionaries? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church) is one of the most active modern practitioners of missionary work, with over 50,000 full-time missionaries worldwide.

If Mormons are so secretive, why do they have all these missionaries trying to spread the Mormon message? And why do they have websites such as http://www.mormon.org where they try to explain their faith and answer any questions someone may have?

Doesn't seem very secretive to me.

Why is this bigotry? The card might have bad intentions, but it is completely accurate when it comes to what Mormons believe. Romy implied he was a better candidate because of his Christian background. Well, it is now time to expose exactly what that is. It was just a matter of time before Christains turned on on another. The following is an exact quote from Luke. I wouldn't consider it bigotry is someone would send out the text on a postcard. So, I question why Romeny would be upset out a quote taken from the book of Mormon, or from Church Teachings. He should be asked if he believes this at the next news conference.

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

where was the outrage when the Bush campaign had its whisper campaign against McCain back in 2000 about his supposedly fathering a non-white child

one of his adopted kids isn't white

As a Mormon it cracks me up that some posters think that Mormons are secretive or unwilling to "come clean" about our beliefs. I will always answer a question that is posed to me to the best of my abilities. But lets be clear, there are things that some people simply will not listen to or want to hear. No matter what Mitt Romney says about faith, God, Jesus Christ some people will simply say "Romney is a Mormon and I won't vote for a Mormon."
Simple ignorance.

I had a friend who was a Black Panther spokesman and leader in the sixties .. after a road to Damascus experience I joined the church and I met him in 1979 and told him about it .. he later joined the church too in Oakland ..

He used to quote this scripture from the Book of Mormon ..

2 Ne. 26: 33

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

Jeez! I am not voting for any republican. They have been playing the "God is on our side" card for too long and it is bringing out some pretty ugly bigotry and will ultimately be the undoing of the party.

This is totally a moveon.org type thing. No one with a brain would take it seriously. Happy New Year !

Sean Allen:

I find it very interesting that your comment follows Greg's. You accuse Mormons of secrecy and needing to "come clean in public", and yet Greg provides everyone with the information (or at least the means to get the information) you're saying is being held secret. For a secret church, the LDS have an incredible amount of information available at their website, available to anyone who's willing to go and see.

As for your implied question about the Book of Abraham, I suggest going to the church's website and seeing for yourself. I believe you might even find the entire text of this book available there for your perusal.

My experience is that most LDS people are more than willing to talk about their beliefs, and though there are many zealous members, they are happy to allow you to make your own choices and won't push you into anything you're not willing to accept. Yes, there are some topics considered sacred that they might not discuss entirely, but I'm sure they can give you a satisfying explanation if they see you're willing to hold a civil conversation with them and not hold their beliefs in ridicule and contempt.

To Sean Allen:

As Mitt Romney stated in his speech:

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

I'm not sure what type of venue you had in mind for the Mormon Church to "come clean" about our beliefs, but Mitt Romney is not the one responsible for clearing it up for you. I suggest that you look through a website of the Mormon Church if you want to know what we believe. The truth of the matter is that the Mormon Church is not shy about what doctrine we believe in, that information is readily available to those who take the time.

The Mormon Church also has online archives of all of its conferences available to anyone with an internet connection. (too bad the same is not true of the SBC, I spent hours looking for the transcript of Mike Huckabee at the 1998 Convention in SLC to see if what he said was anti-Mormon or not).

To Sean Allen:

As Mitt Romney stated in his speech:

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

I'm not sure what type of venue you had in mind for the Mormon Church to "come clean" about our beliefs, but Mitt Romney is not the one responsible for clearing it up for you. I suggest that you look through a http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/ if you want to know what we believe. The truth of the matter is that the Mormon Church is not shy about what doctrine we believe in, that information is readily available to those who take the time.

The Mormon Church also has online archives of all of its conferences available to anyone with an internet connection. (too bad the same is not true of the SBC, I spent hours looking for the transcript of Mike Huckabee at the 1998 Convention in SLC to see if what he said was anti-Mormon or not).

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”

One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity. It is the preachers who insist on the Nicene Creed definition.” It is the Evangelical preachers who push the anti-Mormon propaganda on their congregations. It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

First of all, Mormon temples do not pay for Christmas cards. Secondly, this is anti-Mormon work at its best! The timing is critical as his opponents well know.

I would not be surprised if Huckabee or his Huckabots are behind this. It is extremely hateful, and it is well known that Huckabee and much of the Christian right are hateful towards the Mormon church. I don't know why. Mormons are some of the nicest people you will ever meet. They are moral, family oriented, hard working, and honest. Even more importantly, they don't go around attacking other people's religion. I'm sure everyone knows by now that Huckabee was the key note speaker at an anti-Mormon rally in '98. Can you imagine? Why this man has not been made to answer to his bigotry is beyond me.

I bet you won't find Romney inserting little jabs about Huckabee's Southern Baptist religion. He sticks to the facts of Huckabee's appalling record. Huckabee and his followers can only answer back with religious bigotry.

My vote goes to Mitt Romney.

Just remember that this is South Carolina. In 2000 they smeared John McCain (at the time supporting George W. Bush) by telling people that McCain had a 'black baby' (the implication of course being that he had sired a baby with a black woman, who he has never been married to.) The truth was far, far different (John and Cindy McCain adopted an orphan from Bangladesh and raised her). But that didn't stop the 'black baby' smear.

We don't necessarily know if the people behind this are supporting Huckabee this year, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it is the same crew in S.C. who did the hit job on McCain eight years ago.

Sounds like a run away Mormon to me, maybe we should pay some attention.

I really want to know who is responsible for these adds so I don't end up voting for that person. I would hate to think one of the other candidates is behind this but I have learned not to be surprised at what people do.

It's easy to automatically point the fingers at any given candidate. The way politics go these days, it could be someone completely unassociated with the campaigns yet still supportive of one, even Mitt's. Organizations such as MoveOn.org and Swiftboat... have taken increasingly active roles in the primaries as well as the general elections, so we should not count them out as possible perpetrators of the mailer.

I personally see Huckabee as above this sort of act, especially since he has been defending other candidates from personal attacks. Incidentally those attacks mostly seem to be coming from our victim, Mr. Romney, who also has exponentially more capital than Huckabee or any other candidate (except Mr. Guliani). Again, personally, I don't think pulling the victim card is above Mr. Romney as I do not see him as especially trustworthy in speech or deed. But that is neither here nor there, I suppose.

Point being, I think it would be hubris to automatically attack people willie-nillie without any real idea of where it truly came from. This is the reason I dislike negative campaigning – it polarizes our nation in the worst possible fashion. Just research people's campaign platforms and decide based on that, not the commercials.

It is late for me, so please excuse any typing errors. I'm not proofreading.

Happy New Years!

This stunt surely looks like below-the-belt politics, but it does carry information about Romney's Mormonism that Romney and the Mormons appear unwilling to share in the public sphere. They use rhetoric shared with Christianity to describe their beliefs without ever exposing the basic differentiators. Mormons treat their "religion" with extreme secrecy as if they fear some repercussion if the truth became known. If they weren't so closed about it all, sneak attacks like this Christmas card would not be possible. And "NO THANK YOU" Mormon readers, the answer is not to bring America into your Ward buildings for a good old fashioned teach along. If you want acceptance and/or tolerance, you will have to come clean about your beliefs in public. When and if you do, please be thorough from the pro and con side when explaining your Book of Abraham. And remember, when Romney started playing the faith card in his campaign he opened this religious can of worms in the most dishonest way imaginable. Best of luck to Romney and a sincere wish that he one day find truthfulness.

I don't know who would send this out, but it seems like another attempt to make the Mormons seem impossibly bizarre to voters. The Irony is that those behind this attempted smear are likely some of the same people who would like to argue that Mormons aren't Christians; so it is odd that they would chose a passage from the Book of Mormon that references a vision of the birth of Christ. I imagine that most voters will look at this card and stare at it blankly for a few seconds before they throw it in the trash with the other 100 ads they got today. This is one of the strangest attacks I've heard of yet.

Here are some links that readers might find useful.

The first is a link to the Newsroom site of the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints):

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/

There wasn’t any story there that looked like an official response from the Church when I checked, but one might appear there if one is drafted.

The second is a link to Nephi 11 in the html version of the Book of Mormon for those who want to read the quote from the front of the card in context:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/11

As for the other quote by Orson Pratt, It isn’t in the Churches online resources; if you do a search there for “plurality of wives” all you come up with is references to polygamy written in the 1870’s. This quote is not part of Mormon scripture, and because it’s not referenced on the card it might be tricky to figure out where it is from, or whether it is legitimate.

Mitt Romney has a Christmas Tree like everybody else. Thatis good enough for me. Even if he snuck a touch or spiced rum intohis egg nog or had a glass of wine it is ok with me.

Mitt not perfect, but he is passionate about America and thats ok with me to.

Lets not get the Clintons a sleep at the switch againwith the usual verbage for then to do nothing.

Don't blame Huckabee, it was probably put out by the Clinton machine. What better way to get the GOP in a mess.

From my experience as a Mormon living amidst Southern Baptists in Texas, this is the type of antic they commonly use. Partial truths, complete falsehoods, and some sprinkling of truth. When things are taken out of context the entire meaning can be rearranged. Shame of them, and shame on Huckabee .. they are interrelated. He has been following this same Baptist training while pretending to be clueless. Huckabee is both anti-Mormon AND anti-Catholic. Do the research, he speaks and/or participates in both forums. Rather than being inclusive, he is a very divisive candidate.

I am deeply offended by this attack on Romney's faith, even though i support Obama.

We need hope and change. People should look past these differences and it is the hateful smear campaigners we need to be worried about – Clinton and Huckabee both!

Even foreigners want Obama as our president because he is beyond this type of bigotry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuTtflCcjg4

OBAMA '08!!

Hey, If a Scientologist was running for President, people would have the same intrepidation. I think more Americans know more about L. Ron Hubbard than they know about Joseph Smith. Alot of Christians still believe Mormans to be a cult.

There is nothing wrong with this card. what's the big fuss?

Go Huckabee!!!

Religion and Politics are different things. Romney made it clear last month when he spoke about Faith in Polictics. Its a shame why people ask so many questions about his faith, why don't they ask the same with other candidates.

I hope they find who did this work of distributing the cards.

Don't believe everything you read, people.

Romney is clearly the best, most experienced leader and administrator running for president. His opponents have nothing but lies and deception to offer. Support Romney!

I am in Dallas Texas and can assure you that religious bigotry is alive and well. Just as organized anti-mormon goups continue their hateful effort both inside churches and out. How do I know this? My baptist friends have told me so.

There is no place for this in America.

It is simply deceptive and wrong. Shame on whoever did this.

Bigots left this, the religious right is at it again.

Questions – re: the biracial issues you ask about in the book of Mormon, there were two races that emerged and at different places each of them is cursed or blessed, but it was always based on whether they were obeying God's laws. Mitt's record and retoric, despite his flaws, makes it clear he's not racist. Also Mormons do not believe its leaders to be inerrant or infallible as the Catholics do, making obscure remarks from the 19th century or earlier even less relevant.

If this isn't Mike Huckabee's doing, I'll eat my hat. Huckabee is the worst of Jimmy Carter, the Clintons and Elmer Gantry, combined. I would rather see Edwards elected president, and that's saying something, as I'm a rock-ribbed Reaganite!

This is sickening! Absolutely uncalled for.

I am a Mormon. I am not offended. But context does speak volumes. Someone is certainly picking and choosing scripture here.
But so what.

Any American who is capable of voting should also be able to investigate both the candidates and the Church (if they so desire) for themselves.

Again...context people!

Romney spokesman Will Holley condemned the card.

"It is sad and unfortunate that this kind of deception and trickery has been employed," Holley said. "There is absolutely no place for it in American politics."

Mr. Holley, how do you suppose , Karl ( turdblossom) Rove got to have the reputation as a political genius for your party?

Freedom from religious persecution? Apparently not anymore. Witness further, the erosion of our country's core values. Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?

The Book of Mormon claims that dark skin was a punishment from God and that biracial children were cursed. It is legitimate to ask candidate Romney whether he believes these antebellum racial views are true or false, whether these nineteenth century racial teachings are deplorable lies - or the divine and inerrant Word of God. Thus far, he has declined to answer. Sooner or later, he will have to face these issues head on.

Romey and all the Republicans are running on the "Religion Ticket." They promise their voters that God and the Bible will guide their lives and guide their decisions as President. Yet if anyone points out the delusional bigotry, atrocity, absurdy, and contradiction associated with Christianity and it's two thousand year history, those people are vehemently criticised. Intersting, isn't it?

This may have been someone who supports Huckabee, but I am confident that Huckabee had nothing to do with it himself. He would not stoop to this. NO WAY!

Hopefully Americans are smarter than this bigoted attack. Then again, probably not.

Hate is abundant even during Christmas.

Now don't jump to conclusions. There is no reason to believe that the perpetrators of this hoax have anything at all against Mormons. It is naive to assume in politics that anything is what it appears to be. Who could benefit from this?

Giuliani and Huckabee benefit most from the association of Romey with a description of Mary as white and fair, because those whose skins are not white and fair may detect the odor of racism in the quotation. Of course, Mormonism came of age during a very racist time in American history and it is reflected in the books that Mormon leaders concocted back then. The Old Testament has some very creepy stuff in it too, but let's not start quoting chapter and verse.

Romney himself benefits because of the sympathy he is now getting as the victim of bigotry, so supporters of Romney may be behind it (and perhaps not known to Romney himself).

I am not aware of any big money anti-Mormon groups out there. Mormons are grumbled about by those who take theology seriously, but there is no group that so hates Mormons that they would spend this kind of money just to keep Mitt Romney out of the White House. Mitt is not going to hurt any Conservative cause, and he is about as Mormon as Fred Thompson is Christian.

My money is on the Huckabee supporters, though Huckabee himself was surely not involved. Theology to them is a big deal, and it would make sense to them to attack theology. It would make no sense to Giuliani supporters at all. To them, theology is something that ministers major in at the seminary but it has no relevance to life at all.

So we can relax. This is not bigotry. This is just dirty politics: as American as apple flavored pie-like pastry.

Are those real quotes from the book of Mormon? Even if Romney didn't send the card, those quotes are interesting.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I would caution everyone against pointing fingers. No one has said that they put this out yet and we certainly haven't found out who. Please, let's not be too quick to judge.

Outrageous and insulting. The anti-Mormon crowd is some of the most vicious, intolerant, hateful bunch of "Christians" I've ever seen. And, I'm not even Mormon.

Unbelievable.

Huckabee is a real piece of work, isn't he?

Looks like Huckabee is at it again.

That is absolute religious bigotry.

Everyone should stand against this type of smear, regardless of what you may or may not believe. It's purely sick.

With the bigotry that is evidence in the world, that is destroying countries like Iraq, Pakistan, and Israel, is there any wonder that this happens? Wake up America!