Whoever is guilty of this mail fraud here is assuming SC voters are both ignorant and bigoted. The SC voters should be greatly offended as they are victims of the bigotry as well.

God told Joseph Smith that his name would be known for good and for ill throughout the world. His name would be spoken of for good and for evil. (Pretty big claim for a 14 yr old boy in rural NY in 1820). I know his name for good, you speak of it as evil. It is about that simple. Many didn't believe Noah or Peter or Paul or even Christ, but many did.

If I have offended any for any of my remarks I apologize. I really wish only to help people understand what Mormons believe. I feel that if people really knew, our doors would be so filled with the honest in heart that we would not have space to put everyone. I consider all who accept Jesus as their savior and do not fight against Him or against those who accept him, as a brother or sister.

The Bible does say that God is a spirit. It also says He is love, and that He is light. When you die, your spirit will continue to live while your body rots. What are you, body or spirit? Which is the real you? Yes, God is spirit, but so are men and women, and that doesn’t mean we do not have bodies. One of the great truths of the restoration is that the Father and Son are separate and distinct personages with glorified and perfected bodies. You will be resurrected and guess what, you will still be a spirit, but with an immortal body.

These doctrines are true revelations of God’s word and by your interpretation blasphemous. Christ was accused of blasphemy more than any other accusation, but it wasn’t so.
We do focus on Christ, but we also recognize the reality of Satin and his deceptions. My goodness they are real and all around the earth.
I am sorry that you do not recognize our reverence for Christ and for our Heavenly Father. Again, that lack of recognition does not mean we do not reverence them. I know with all my heart and being that Christ lives. I hear the testimonies our people all the time to the same fact. I hear our teaching of Him and our proclaiming our faith and His name as ours. I know that He is my redeemer, my savior, my lord and all I do is for Him. I love and respect and reverence Him and bow at His power and majesty. I know that someday I will see him and feel his loving embrace. I know that I will bow and with my tears wet his Holy feet and because of His mercy and love I will dwell eternally with Him, and with My Heavenly Father. By His gift I have life eternal. He lives, He lives, all glory to His name. He lives, He lives, my Savior still the same.

I am sorry you feel how you do. Your salvation is between God and you. We (Mormons) do not say that you will not be saved for any reason you mention. We allow you to believe and worship how and what you may. All will sometime know all truth and have the chance to accept or reject it. I will leave that at that.

Your comments about the temple are off base. Since you have not gone, you do not know. I did not look at your link. There are some who are disturbed by the temple. I don’t think you would ever understand in your current state of mind. Is the priesthood Biblical? The temple has to do with priesthood. The priesthood and temple blessings are open to the members of the church, hence the tearing of the early temple veil. Hebrews says that no man taketh this honor unto himself, except he is called as was Aaron. Aaron was called and washed, anointed with oil and clothed with the robes of the priesthood (see Exodus). That is the basis of the temple work. Most members go back on a regular basis as a part of their worship, but one can worship in their own home, in their closet, in their church and in the wilderness and does not have to worship only in the temple.
You say there are no “requirements” in the Bible beyond belief. Again I think you are not reading the entire Bible. Christ told Nicodemus that a man must be born of the water and the spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. There are many other references to the necessity of baptism. Christ taught that a man’s heart and actions are needed and not just belief, over and over. It is so clear in the New Testament. Other Christian chrurches recognize it as a requirement.

This is 1/10th of what I could write and I could give you verse by verse, but there is not room. Again, we know and love Jesus Christ as our Savior and recognize that he talked again to a young boy prophet in New York and that which was revealed to this boy, Joseph Smith was the word of God designed to bring us to Jesus Christ. May you feel the reverence we have for God. I am so glad that you love God and Christ and reverence them. This is good. Would that all the peoples of the earth did the same, and then the wars and hate and bigotry would end. Kelly

I would like to respond to a couple of your questions. I hope to do so in a non-contentious way for contention is of the devil. I see that there is an in pass on things. Obviously what you and I believe is from God and what is from the devil are different things and certainly one thing is true, we can not both be correct. There are different interpretations of the Bible, yours, ours, and others. The Bible says that no passage of the scripture is of private interpretation, but is to be interpreted by revelation as it was given. Again we believe in revelation from God today, and that God called Joseph Smith and subsequently other prophets and that it is His word that comes through them. I assume that you would agree that prophets are Biblical.

As far as your question about ONE God, you are correct. This was directed at people who lived in a time when there was a plurality of gods. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans had many gods. You have heard some of their names, Zeus, Saturn, Venous, Mars etc. Some worshiped the earth and stars and the sun and moon, or animals, cattle, birds etc. God taught that there was one God, mighty and above all. That God was our father. Yet it is interesting that in Genesis when man was made, the scripture says, “Let US go down and make man in OUR image”. It is certain that we recognize our Heavenly Father as God and when we talk of God we most often refer to Him. It is certain that Jesus Christ is also God, even Jehovah born as a man. It is clear that when He was baptized and at the mount of transfiguration the Father proclaimed Him to be His Son, in whom He was well pleased. It is clear that Christ prayed to the Father many times, prayed in the garden that not His will, but that of the Father would be done. He cried out on the cross that His Father’s presence seemed to be gone, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” Yet these two are one.

Now how are they one? The doctrine of the trinity says “one essence”. This is something that admittedly no human can really understand, a mystery. Christ made it rather clear in his great intercessory prayer in John 17. Read this. He prayed in fact for us, you and I who believe, that we would be ONE with Him, even as He was one with the father, that we would receive the Glory that He had with the Father before the earth was created (In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and was God.) Now if we become ONE even As they are one, will we be part of the trinity? Obviously not. A husband and wife are to be one. We in the church are to be one. One implies unity, not of the same essence. The only way those in 325 in Nicaea could explain the difficulty scriptures of one God and the duel nature of the Father and Son was by the doctrine of the trinity, but they missed the mark. Again, this is our interpretation of the scriptures, but it is as valid as yours as an interpretation, and only one is right. I respect your choice to believe as you believe and ask you to respect ours. You may not believe it, but you can’t say we do not believe in the Bible.

When we talk of “God”, it really doesn’t matter if it is the Father or the Son in most cases, because of this unity. They are one in purpose, in power, in mercy, in love etc. Yet they are separate in roles and as personages. When we say God loves us, it could be either. It is both etc.

I haven't PRE judged... I have done research on the internet, and have asked questions and put things out here on this site hoping to get answers, confirmations or explanations, which I am still waiting for. And I have listened to responses with an open mind. I am also not intolerant of Mormon believers just because I don't agree with their beliefs. Calling me a bigot makes you ignorant ( def. destitute of knowledge or education ).

I have a right to ask questions, gather information ( my way ) and then form an opinion about the Mormon religion ( especially because my next president could be a Mormon ) and that doesn't make me a bigot...

I really don't get how I am 'bashing' another's religion just because I am asking questions and expressing opposing views...

Just going through the dictionary and as a community service wanted to add a passage from Websters dictionary:

Big-ot A person of strong conviction of prejudice especially in matters of religion, race or politics, who is in-tolerant of those who differ with him.

Big-ot-ed Being or characteristic of a bigot.

May this year be one filled with peace and tolerance.
Best regards,
Iamlancalot

You CANNOT separate these temple practices from the Mormon religion – they come from the same man. Why would you continue to follow this religion with all the anti Christian things blatanly in plain sight? The satanic symbols on the churches and the temple undergarments, the lack of any Christian symbols on any temples – NO CROSSES????? Let me ask you... who else does not like this symbol??? – What would it take for a Mormon believer to finally realize the truth?? What more do you need??? How many more 'explanations' are you willing to accept for all of these questionable things?? And I wonder how many more 'adjustments' or corrections to Joseph Smith's doctrines will be made so that this 'religion' is more acceptable. Isn't your salvation and your relationship with God the most important thing?...what else could be more important that would keep you from the TRUTH?

It is so clear to me that Mormons are the ones that have so much to lose if they are wrong… you are the ones who lack wholehearted reverence for Him….

So I'll ask again…WHY is it unfortunate that " many have ears which will not hear and eyes and will not see"? We are following the same Bible that you ( Mormons ) claim to be following… are we, mainstream Christians, not going to be saved because we want to give ALL the credit to God for our salvation? or because we want to worship God as the One and only instead of becoming gods equal with Him? Or for not wanting to believe that Jesus and lucifer were brothers, once equal or that God was once an imperfect man like us? Or for not believing that man will have multiple wives and therefore multiple sex relations in heaven? Or for not believing in a man that boasts that he has accomplished more that Jesus?
Basically for giving TOO MUCH reverence to God???

And I noticed that you didn't have much to say about the Mormon temple ceremony link that I posted. I'm not surprised because it states right in the beginning of the article that most Mormons who do go thru a temple ceremony don't want to think about about it afterwards, that they try to put it out of their minds. You say that the temple and the 'sacred' things that happen there are 'open' to anyone…BUT only once you have been baptized into the Mormon 'religion' "for that is the requirement"… mainstream Christianity has no such requirements to join in worshiping God. Nothing should stand in the way of someone who wants to be closer to God and worship Him. That's why the curtain in the temple was torn at the moment that Jesus died on the cross.
Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

James 2:19 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

( just wondering…in your response, every time you mention god, how am I supposed to know which god you are talking about?? How do Mormons know which god is being spoken of in the Bible??)

And also…
The Mormon doctrine that all will become gods equal with God is NOT Biblical.

The Mormon doctrine that God is of flesh and bones as tangible as man's – Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22… is NOT Biblical….
John 4:24 Jesus said: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Mormon doctrine that Jesus and satan were spirit brothers is NOT Biblical.

The Mormon doctrine that we can become rulers of our own planet is NOT Biblical.

The Mormon doctrine that God was once an imperfect man who worked his way to godhood and was then given his own planet to rule ( by WHO?? ) is NOT Biblical.
I could go on and on.

Not only are these doctrines not Biblical but they are non-reverential and BLASPHEMOUS.

We agree with this and virtually everything written in the articl in regads to the description of Christ's divinity(which I am sure comes as a surprise to you). We do not agree with the final statement defining the Trinity, that Christ and the Father are of one substance. We do believe that Christ was begotton of the Father in spirit before the world was created, and that He was the creator of the world under the direction of the Father. He (Jehovah, Christ, The Lord, the I Am,) then came to the earh, was born of the Virgin Mary as the only Begotten Son of God int he flesh and died for us, atoning for our sins in His death. He was resurrected and lives today.

Is Christ the Son of God as the Bible teaches? If so, then how? (We believe that he is, both in the spirit before the beginning (as in the creed) and in the flesh in the meridian of time (as in the Bible).)

Briefly, in response. I am not saying that God "could not' have spoken to those who invented the Nicean creed, only that He didn't , for it is not Biblical.

Certainly Christ is divine. He is the very Jehovah of the Old Testament, is the Creator of all things, is the God of Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, John, Paul, and of Moroni, Mormon, Joseph Smith and the Latter-Day Saints. (I didn't read your reference) for I know that Christ is divine, as the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the LDS church teaches.

When I said, "only the Bible", it was in reference to the creeds, which we do not accept. Again the creeds are the interpretation of the scriptures and they were wrong on some things.

"We" – I speak of we as members of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". There are not 100s of Mormon divisions. There are some apostate groups it is true. There are no contradictions within the scripures of the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (which includes the Holy Bible).

Mormons accept all of the Bible as being the Word of God. Your interpretation of some verses is apparently dfferent than ours (as noted in Rev 22:18-19 for example).

I have been to the temple and the sacred things that happen there are open to you or anyone who is willing to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, willing to be baptized by someone who has been called of God and given the authority to do that baptism, and willing to make covenants to follow Jesus Christ with all your heart, mind and strength, for that is the requirements of going to the temple.

I am sorry that you feel that I and Latter-day Saints are followers of Satin, for that is what Satin wants you to believe. I know Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, as my Lord and my King. I know God the Eternal Father as my Father and have felt His love and spirit in my life many times and have felt His spirt witness to me the things I read in the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. I love Christ and worship Him, the very Christ of the Holy Bible, the same Bible you read. God lives and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His church. He loves you, and he loves all people on the earth. He will open the door to all who honestly seek him. We as members of the church reach out to any one who will listen with an open and honest heart. We deny none and believe that before the judgement day, all who every have lived upon the earth will get a chance to hear of, understand and accept Jesus Christ as their savior, as we have done. May the Lord bless you, I pray.

Unfortunatly there are many who have ears which will not hear and have eyes and will not see.

Not sure what you are referring to...if it is to my 'editing' my posts, yes.. I am not taking these debates lightly, there is a lot at stake here... the more I read about Joseph Smith's 'religion' the more motivated I am to speak out and I just want to get my points across the best that I can.

I want peace also and I can certainly understand the anger and frustration of Mormons who feel like they and their religion are constantly getting 'attacked ' but I've noticed the tendancy to lump every anti-mormon into the catagory of hate and bigotry and you should know that there are MANY Christians who believe that these teachings that you are following are detrimental to your eternal soul and THAT is their motivation .... no Mormon here is implying that the reverse is true... that our souls will be lost for not following Joseph Smith's teachings.... so we have legitimate, sincere reasons for speaking out against Mormonism but I am not quite understanding the 'true' motivation behind the many requests by Mormons for me to talk to their missionarys. And also why what ever the missionarys would say could not be posted here??? Why do I have to talk to someone in person??
I have to honestly say that I am very suspicious of motive.... but I am not saying that I am necessarily suspicious of the believers but I AM DEFINITELY suspicious of the teachings of Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion's aggresive ' recruiting ' tactics that scream CULT at every turn.

"Otherwise–let's have peace."

And Kelly... can you define 'we' in "We accept only what the Bible teaches.." because apparently there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism and all of their scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points.
So far I haven't notice Mormons accepting very much of what the Bible teaches at all... but you accept ALL the writings of Joseph Smith who "claims" to be a prophet... just because God can speak to man today doesn't mean he spoke to Joseph Smith... of all the Mormons here defending this 'religion'... have any gone thru an actual Temple ceremony and sworn oaths about secrets and rites? If you haven't then you don't know all there is to know about Mormonism and if you have and are still a Mormon you are in DENIAL and are either knowingly or unknowingly a follower of satan.

http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/doombook/doomtext/01mtod.htm

I think America are very tolerant and will realize that most politicians just use religion to appear normal, to appear like one of us. Deep inside we all read our religious books, but go on living our lives the way we want to and not the way we are told to by some book or bible. Even if the book has some silly things to say.

I doubt Huckabee is any more a suspect than a democrat or a disgruntled Mormon. At the time of the posting of the card, Romney was seen as a strong leader and a competitor would wish to face a weaker candidate seen as Huckabee. Hence if your trying to point fingers who did this dirty trick it could be anyone wanting to move the power around.

I do have some responses to your points.. It seems that you are under the impression that the Protestant belief is that you can do all the bad things you want and still be saved if you have said the right words...I think that is probably the most misunderstood doctrine from the Mormon's point of view... it is ludacris to think that that would be the case. When my pastor asks people if they would like to accept Christ as their savior, after he has led them in the prayer, he says that if you said those words AND YOU MEANT IT the Bible says that you are saved. key words... AND YOU MEANT IT. That you TRULY repented and asked for Jesus to come into your HEART. If He is truly in your heart you won't go and commit all of these sins. Remember God cares about what is in our hearts... I'm sure you agree with that. And if you have Jesus in your heart how could you NOT go and do good works?? Wouldn't they come naturally?

As to judgement and reward... I think these words are being taken out of context if you think they have the same meaning as salvation in the Rev. & Matthew verses. I'll try to explain... you stated ( as I did ) how it doesn't make any sense to think that someone could be saved just by SAYING those certain words... for the obvious reasons... so what if one person does do ALL they can do ( although I don't think it is possible ) and another person does just a small portion of what they could do... wouldn't you have a problem with that also... if both received the same REWARD in heaven? The Protestant belief is that we are STILL judged and rewarded based on what is written in the Book of Life..on our works.. BUT our SALVATION comes from faith APART from works. ( sorry.. I don't have an answer as to what our rewards will be but I don't have to know ALL the answers in order to believe )( that statement is partly directed at the athiests out there who might be reading). This view just seems to make so much more sense.. I mean how can someone do ALL they can do? And again, I ask, what if someone doesn't do ALL they can do? Well, it seems to me that that is where judgement and reward would come in. Unless, of course, they don't receive salvation all together because they didn't do ALL they could do. I also wanted to mention that in those verses in Rev. & Matthew faith and grace are NOT mentioned and you have acknowledged that those are also required for salvation so since they are not mentioned in these verses I think it supports what I am saying that these verses are NOT talking about salvation. Context is the key in all of these verses we are debating and I think I proved the context here for the words judgement and reward and earlier in James 2:14-26 for the word faith.

You probably do not even know that John wrote Revelations about 80 AD and then 10 years later he (added to the word and) wrote the gospel of John. Five years after John wrote Revelations and Rev 22:18, Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew and Luke wrote the gospel of Luke and Acts in 85AD.

I guess they did not understand Rev 22:18 the same way you and so many others do who think it applies to the Bible. The Bible was not 'compiled' in 80 AD (not until about 400 AD). The term Bible does not occur in the Bible, much less in Revelations.

As noted Deut. says to not add to the word. God is the one who adds to the word through his prophets.

Are you saying that God could not call and talk to a Prophet today? Are you saying He could not have talked to prophets in Ancient America? Are you saying that if those prophets wrote what they were inspired to write from God that it would not be scripture? Is God not able to add to his own word? Perhaps people and churches have it so right in the world that we do not need God today, do not need a prophet, and do not need a word of clarification.

We (Latter day Saints) believe in a God who can and did talk to man again. That is good news.

The true nature of God was lost by 325 AD when the Niciean creed was formulated and then cemented by the Council of Constantinople in 381. The holy trinity was defined. By then the church leaders had defined 'another Christ' and another Gospel from that which Paul knew. God restored the fullness of the original Gospel and the true nature of Christ and the Father in 1830. One may choose to look into this miraculous truth, or choose to fight against it and ignore it.

Protestants reject most of the creeds of the Catholic Church, but accept the first several while Latter Day Saints reject all of them including the first (the concept of the Trinity). We accept only what the Bible teaches and it does not teach the trinity.

Also I completely disagree with your analysis of Hukabee (A keynote speaker at a Baptist conference in Salt Lake City several years ago – directed at the Latter Day Saint People – full of anti-Mormons) and Romney. Each is free to believe what he wishes to believe.

In Deuteronomy 4:2 The Lord says the same thing to the Israeites. So what was added? The additional books of the Bible (after Deuteronomy) or additional scriptures, The Book of Mormon, Koran, etc. or was it additional gospel teachings? Many of these have shown up in many religions, even the Jewish.

Everyone just needs to leave religion out of politics, period!

Funny, people that quote Rev 22:18 usually have no clue what it means....this appears to be the case for you

The offensiveness of the card does not come from the Book of Mormon quote, however inflammatory the bolding of certain words may be. It does not come from the Orson Pratt quote, however obscure, irrelevant, or out-of-context it may be. (And I acknowledge that, of the three, it may only qualify as 'obscure'.) It DOES come from the use of Romney's name, and, worse, the use of the image and name of the Boston Temple.

If a private individual, candidate, or group wanted to use the exact same scriptural passage and Pratt quote, but mail it out under their own name, that would not be any more offensive than your average anti-Mormon tract. No, I'm not exactly enamored with anti-Mormon tracts, but they are perfectly legal. The fake Christmas card is FRAUD. That is neither legal nor defensible.

Someone quotes the book of Mormon verbatim and the cry and hue of bigotry is deafening.

And look at all those willing to instantly point fingers without even a shred of proof.

The fact is, Mike Huckabee has more honor and integrity in his little toe than Mitt Romney and his entire band of supporters have in their entire being.

And when you, the unchristian, have an answer for Rev 22:18, do let us know.

The Mormon faith agrees that there is nothing we could do without the Lord...we would be lost forever without his sacrifice, no matter if we were completely obedient, no matter what we did in this life. In the Book of Mormon a great prophet name King Benjamin taught this principle in Mosiah 2:21....

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

The verses that follow reiterate verse 21....

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

We are all lacking in the sight of the Lord. No matter how much we do or give, we will all be short at Judgement Day. That is the reason He gave his life...to make up for where we we fall short.........HOWEVER, it is up to us to obey. We cannot say "I accept the Lord as my Savior" and then at a later day choose not to obey, not repent, and expect to automatically get in because we "accepted" the Lord earlier in our life. This is the problem with the protestant beliefs. It submits that believing is everything and actions are only "nice to haves". If actions are not essential, what sense would Rev. 20:12-13 and Matt 16:27 make? You say it refers to Judgement and Reward, not salvation. From your point of view, what is this reward? That I will have three trumpets in heaven instead of 1? That I will have a better choir voice than others? The reward spoken of is the glory of eternal life with our Heavenly Father. All will be resurrected, but not all will live with our Father in Heaven again. Again, I don't know how you can take the liberty to change what the words say in the Bible, but in Rev 20:12-13 it says we are judged by our works, not FAITH. (speaking of changing the words in the Bible, I too have read the NIV and if you compare it to the earlier KJV, they are barely similar. You were talking about adding and deleting....I agree with Annie, the NIV does this as well as change meaning and context.)

Kathy....are you serious about Heb 5:9???? Of course those that obey are going to be "believers of the word" and "doers of the word". Doing means acting. Again, it says nothing here of faith.....you can try to insert the word here all you want...it simply is not found in the verse. The word is obey, which implies action. In fact, the previous verse (Heb 5:8) speaks of the action that the Lord himself took in obedience to His Father. His works were perfect. If it were not for His perfect works, He would not have been perfect. Hypothetically, He could have had faith, but it wouldn't have served anything were it not for his perfect obedience to His Father and His sinless life. It is action the Savior took. When He proposed the higher law in chapter 5 of Matthew, do you think he was just kidding when He said, "Be ye therefore perfect." ? Why command if there is no reward or consequence to adherence of the commandment?

Kathy, you asked about who gave authority to Joseph Smith. Christ did. Give the Mormon missionaries one hour of your time (much less than the amount of time you have dedicated to writing in this blog), and the full gospel of Jesus Christ will be laid out before you. You will feel the Holy Spirit testify to you of the truthfulness of what they share, just like the Lord promised in John 14:26...the same way that Peter received a witness in Matt 16:17. If it isn't true, you won't feel the Comfortor as John 14:26 says. The Lord promised to "bring all things to your rememberance", and he will do this for you.

The missionaries will share with you the good news Williams, (your religion's founder) was waiting for: Authority, apostles, and ordinances. I am not making up Williams' words or beliefs. Keller's branches sprout from the roots that Williams planted, from Williams' tree. Even Williams acknowledged that HE did NOT have the authority. If he didn't have the authority, how could Keller, a branch from the tree. Without the authority one cannot speak for or act in the name of God. The Lord says as much in Luke 9:1-2, John 15:16, and Matt 21:23-27. The Prophet Joseph Smith was given this authority from the Lord. It has been passed down by the laying on of hands until this day. A prophet lives on the Earth today. He is the Lord's servent and mouthpiece. Can you imagine living in the time of Moses, Abraham, Noah, and Peter? Can you imagine what it would be like to have a prophet that the Lord communicated with, living today. It is true and you have the opportunity to hear him.

Good luck and God bless.

–R

I too have an NIV Bible. I am currently studying the Old Testament using the King James Version of the Bible as well as the NIV Bible. It is pretty interesting lining these two documents up together and seeing what things have changed. Interesting to be sure.

Yes,yes,yes, I agree, works is the way by which a person shows his/her faith, I have stated that in my previous posts and I also believe that we will be judged by our works.... I don't dispute that.... what I am disputing is the Mormon doctrine that says that works are REQUIRED ( in addition to faith ) in order to receive salvation...as I've stated many times.... I'll repeat the Book of Mormon scripture again..."...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23),

... so that means that if someone does not do ALL that they can do, like for example doesn't give ALL the money that they could have given, then they will not receive salvation? It seems pretty clear that that's the case.
Who would be saved then? No one because no one could possible do all they could have done in there lifetime. Don't you see the problem with that?? So we are 100% dependent on God's saving grace. And at this point I will state again that that doesn't mean that I believe that good works are not required... they are just not required in order to receive God's saving grace of salvation.

The verses you quoted: Rev 20:12-13, Matt 16:27, and Phili 2:12 do not support 2 Nephi 25:23... the first two are referencing Judgement and reward – not salvation . In Phili 2:12 the word 'work' is a verb – not the same as 'works'.

Heb 5:9 ....unto all them that obey him ( the obedience that comes from receiving / accepting God's saving grace )

R, you keep stating how clear these verses are but what is clear to me is that either side can take any of this out of context. The concept of context and interpretation compounded by translation upon translation pretty much makes the entire Bible debatable if one chooses to debate it. I choose to believe the Bible in it's entirety... I believe it is the information that God has chosen to give to us just as it is ( and just as it was when others received it thru out history ) and we have the free will to interpret it however we want, accept it or reject it.(or change or add to it but we have been warned in the Bible against doing these things)
I believe that how we choose to interpret it or what we choose to believe is going to be based soley on what is in our hearts. And that is what God is ultimately interested in. My heart tells me to humbly accept God's gift of salvation, acknowledging that there is NOTHING that I could do myself to EARN this gift and then do good works out of love and gratitude for this incredible grace that He has given me.

And I wanted to address this... you asked who gave Bill Keller the authority to tell the world what the Bible means but I'm still waiting for an answer to that same question concerning Joseph Smith....

Thanks for your response. You asked what other verses support 'my' doctrine (of course it is not my doctrine)....I will get to what the Lord's doctrine says. But first, you forgot to mention two other scriptures that 'support' your claim:

1) Acts 16:31 when Paul told the Phillipian jailer, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

2) Romans 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth......the just shall live by faith"

Quite simply (and I don't know how to say it any other way), works is the way by which a person shows his/her have faith AND ultimately the way by which he/she will be judged. Let me elaborate:

Peter and Paul's writings concerning salvation were hard to understand. This is probably why Luther wrote to Philip Melancthon and said, "We must sin as long as we are in the flesh...Sin cannot separate us from God, even if we were to commit a thousand adulteries and as many homocides." (Christian Apologies Vol. 2, Page 417). We read however in 1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

This doctrine of saved by grace is one of the most misunderstood doctrines in the world today. Rev 20:12-13 speaking of judgement day informs us that all were judged, "according to their works".
Matt 16:27 informs us of Christ's declaration that, "the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Paul said in Phili. 2:12, "Work out your own salvation through fear and trembling."

We are saved by grace after we do all we can. The Jews were firm believers in the "works of the law" and so these great Apostles would often write and tell them that these works would not save them. We are all going to be saved by the grace of Christ, but be rewarded for our works done in the flesh. Chirst did provide three main works to show that it was by his grace that we should be saved–therefore, erased our boasting. These three WE could not have done for ourselves, and are thereby saved by HIS grace:

1) He created the earth upon which we live. (Coloss 1:16-17)
2) He attoned for the transgression of our first parents who had brought death into the world, thus bringing resurrection from the grave, or reuniting the body and spirit. (1 Cor. 15:22, James 2:26)
3) By giving us the everlasting gospel, "he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb. 5:9)

These things we could not do for ourselves, and therefore it was his grace that made it possible. However, as the last scripture I quoted in Heb 5:9 teaches, he was the author "unto all them that obey him". Notice the last three words....."that obey him". This does not read, all "that grace him" or all "that faith him" or all "that believe him". It is "obey". The word is obey, obey, obey. Obedience. That means it takes actions. And actions is another word for works.

Kathy, I don't know how much more clear this can be. I am not quoting out of the Book of Mormon or from any of the Mormon prophets. I am quoting from the Bible. My suggestion for you would be to be cautious of those that try to 'teach' you. You keep quoting Bill Keller. Who gave him the *authority* to tell the world what the Bible means? How does he justify these verses? It seems like he and you have a contridiction of verses if you interpret them the way you say you do. Even the great reformist Martin Luther couldn't square the circle. The fact of the matter is, that truth comes from God, not from man. If you claim, as Protestants do, that the Church of Rome fell, (as did the Church of England in her "Homily against Peril of Idolatry" in Book of Homilies), then Bill Keller and Luther can't have the whole truth, the everlasting gospel, because Christ taught that a live branch cannot grow off a dead tree (Matt 7:18). To claim to have the truth (as Protestatnts/Baptists do) the *authority*, ordinances, and principles of the gospel must be recognized and evident. It was Roger Williams, considered by many to be the founder of the Baptist Church, that stated on page 503 in Picturesque America, that there was,

"no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming, I am seeking."

Williams lived in the 1600s, starting his organization more than 100 years after Luther was excommunicated. If Williams recognized that "apostles", "authority", and "ordinances" were necessary.....HE WAS SEEKING THEM!....then what does that say about Bill Keller and others within the Protestant/Baptist faith. I ask you Kathy, what has changed regarding apostles, authority, and ordinances within your faith for the past 400 years? The answer is nothing. If Williams was still alive today and looking within your faith, he would say, "I am still seeking apostles, authority, and ordinances".

The good news Kathy is that about 150 years after Williams died, a boy was born that would soon be a latter day prophet.. God called him (Amos 3:7) and Christ re-established his church, with apostles, *authority*, and ordinances. If you'd like to know the truth, read through http://www.mormon.org and contact your local missionaries.

R

Cephas.... thanks for your response... I very much appreciate your insightfullness and knowledge ... I will respond back soon.

Dee Dee..... I do reflect back to my daughter at every opportunity.

Annie... the Bible I use is the New International Version Study Bible.

To answer your question,
We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ...that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

Isn't that what everyone should be doing?

Your response has me wondering if you read / understood my post.

Yes, I agree that faith and works go hand in hand. That is what James is saying. Faith IS dead without works because if the faith is not PRODUCING good works then it must not have been true saving faith in Jesus as their Savior.

There are two concepts of faith in these verses… the faith that is genuine ( faith in Jesus to save us ) and the faith that is only accepted knowledge of truth.

verse 19 of James chapter 2
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This verse states that even the devils have faith…. now according to your view if these devils now do good works ( of course these works won't be well meaning ) they will receive salvation… they have faith and good works. Do you see now the different meanings of the word faith in these scriptures? In verses 14-20,24,26 James is talking about faith in the sense of a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as Savior. This includes the verse you quoted…" (verse 24) that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." In this verse James is talking about the kind of faith that the 'devils' have ( without trust in Christ as Savior). If you choose to take these words at face value and not in the context in which they were written then what is your explanation for these verses by the Apostle Paul?

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

Galations 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

These verses SUPPORT the NIV Bible context of the verses in James. What other verses in the Bible support your interpretation?

I don't agree with the idea that Martin Luther 'invented' the 'concept' of salvation coming by faith alone. The official doctrine may not have existed before him but the concept was certainly there from the beginning when the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:28 …For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

and in Galatians 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

You stated that "Mormons don't believe in working our way to Heaven" but the scripture in the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to support that: For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23, pg. 100)…. it states that works are required!!

If you believe in following all of the scripture then what about the verses I quoted above?

Interpretations and context of the scriptures could make us go round and round forever it seems. There has to come a time for everyone when you just have to make a choice as to which belief is correct.

I choose to believe in the doctrine that says that we can ONLY be saved by the grace of God thru our faith in Christ and not by anything else. And in response to his saving grace I will HUMBLY do all the good works that I can. If after receiving the knowledge of his grace I do not produce good works then as James explained, my faith would not be real or it would be of a different kind… " a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as savior". ( the demons believe this much) ( NIV text note for verses 14-26 of James chapter 2 ) This Christian doctrine does not exclude the importance of good works, it is merely stating that good works are not to be included in our saving grace. They are to be separate. " For a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law. ( Romans 3:28)

Cephas, doesn't it make more sense and is more reverential to give God FULL credit for the gift of our salvation. Why do Mormons insist on receiving part of the credit thru good works? There is no way we can do ANYTHING to make ourselves righteous.

What is the harm in giving all the credit to God and also doing good works. Do Mormons think that if you don't include the requirement of good works in order to receive salvation that people would just not do any / or enouph good works? In other words that we must be forced to do good works? That God's love and the gift of grace that He has given us wouldn't be enouph to prompt us to show our gratitude thru good works? That doesn't say much for one's faith does it? If we are not prompted to do good works out of love and grace then the problem is not in lack of good works it is in our faith.

Part 1
I'm glad you haven't abandoned our conversation yet and thank you for accepting my apology. And I want to start out by saying that I greatly admire your sincerity and honesty.

The issue of whether Mormonism is a cult is really not as important to me as the actual doctrinal issues so I'm just going to skip over that. Although I would like to say that the definition that you guoted does seem to me to define Mormonism mainly because of the more unusual beliefs but then again as a friend (who unfortunately is an atheist ) reminded me; there are unusual beliefs in every religion including Christianity.

As to the anti-Christ issue. It is clear in the Bible that there is an ongoing battle with God and Satan with the goal of Satan being the taking of as many souls as he can until God stops him. As the Bible states… God will ultimately win but until then Christians believe that we need to/should fight for those souls as well. We need to fight the anti-Christ. He is God's enemy and therefore our enemy. And that, without a doubt, is what I believe Bill Keller's mission is…to stand up against Satan. And believe me… he does not just come after the cultist religions… on a regular basis he critisizes our own Christian church leaders for not standing up to Satan's works for fear it will negatively affect their income / offerings. And I don't doubt for a minute that the anti-Mormon movement started the way that you described. No question that the desire for money and power are the reigning motivation of many – even among the self proclaimed 'religious'. Selfish desires are our greatest human weakness and Satan's "ace in the hole" so to speak.
Cephas, do you honestly believe that the people at the top in the Mormon religion are immune to this weakness? Is not Romney's bid for the white House an attempt to strengthen and empower the Mormon establishment?… of course you will say no to this but I find it very plausable and probable. I have read several things about the Mormons plans for getting a man in the White House but I won't repeat them now. And I understand how you wouldn't want to believe that a Mormon could result to sending death threats but your lack of belief is somewhat irrational because there are always 'bad apples' in every bunch. And the bad apples in this scenario are the ones who are aggressively trying obtain that goal of putting a Mormon in the most powerful position in the world. I'm going to include some words from Bill Keller's daily devotional – this one was written several days after he made his well known statement: " A vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan".

For the nearly 8 years I have been writing the Daily Devotional and the over 4 years of doing the TV program, some of the most viscous attacks on our technical infrastructure, on me personally, have come when I expose the lies of the satanic Mormon cult. This time was no different, except it was at an unprecedented level of ferociousness since I was taking on their greatest hope to capture the most powerful office in the world. We had our website and servers attacked relentlessly all weekend. I've received 12 death threats so far in addition to the scores of emails telling me that "someone will visit me when I least expect it." I refuse to live in fear and having dealt with these types of threats for the past 8 years, have learned how to use the common sense the Lord gave me and ultimately trust Him to watch over me as I serve Him each day.

I know Bill Keller's words are harsh, and you may still choose not to believe his claims but as I said earlier, I believe there are bad apples in every bunch.

Your response has me wondering if you read / understood my post.

Yes, I agree that faith and works go hand in hand. That is what James is saying. Faith IS dead without works but the point is that if the works don't come naturally ( not forced...done in order to help earn salvation) then the faith isn't GENUINE saving faith. THAT is the point of James' scriptures.

There are two concepts of faith in these verses... the faith that is genuine ( faith in Jesus to save us ) and the faith that is only accepted knowledge.

verse 19 of James chapter 2
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This verse states that even the devils have faith.... now according to your view if these devils now do good works ( of course these works won't be well meaning ) they will receive salvation... they have faith and good works. Do you see now the different meanings of the word faith in these scriptures? James is talking about faith in the sense of a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as Savior in verses 14-20,24,26. This includes the verse you quoted..." that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (verse 24) In this verse James is talking about the kind of faith that the 'devils' have ( without trust in Christ as Savior). If you choose to take these words at face value and not in the context in which they were written then what is your explanation for these verses by the Apostle Paul?

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

Galations 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

These verses SUPPORT the NIV Bible context of the verses in James. What other verses in the Bible support your context / doctrine?

I don't think your friend is quit right. But almost...What Bill Keller says is ... say Hitler, just before he died, repented ( was truly sorry for his sins) and accepted Christ as his Savior... he would be saved ( he would be forgiven )... but it's not just a matter of saying the words... it's what is in his heart and God will know. If someone gets saved and then goes on to commit a multitude of unspeakable sins then his faith couldn't have been real..... he did not truly accept Jesus as his Savior. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this very well but I am sure that you are judged by what is in your heart. That's why the 'requirement' to do good works is not a good doctrine because ... how does that show God your gratitude and love... your doing these good works because you want to receive something in return – Salvation. It's kind of like when a child says " why doesn't God just 'program' us to obey and worship Him" He didn't 'program' us because He wants us to WANT to obey and love him out of His love for us. We should not be forced to do good works (in order to receive something) we should do the good works because we want to. That's the problem with the Mormon doctrine on Salvation.

I hope everyone is well.

Part IIa

I had hoped to get back to your Joseph Smith questions tonight but I guess there is more needed on what I like to call "Faith vs. Works or Both". That’s OK. But please understand that smarter folks than we (all of us) have been arguing about this very topic since before the Reformation began. So there is a better than fair chance that, at some point, we will have to agree to disagree. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean I won't talk about it. The Gospel is an exciting and vibrant thing to me. But you should know now that I’ve satisfied my mind on these issues years ago, and it will not change.

I’d like you encourage you to consider “R’s” comments, they are spot on.

Kathy one of the things that always bugged me about this discussion is the varying definitions of the word “work” or “works”. I say “varying” because in my experience Protestant Clergy and Lay Members of Protestant Churches often approach this argument using different definitions. Clergy normally equate Mormon Works with our belief in the need for certain physical ordnances (that’s why I referenced Baptism before) – in many cases, they site some of the same scriptures you did; often they believe our requirement for Baptism and other things like that to be abominations. Lay Members most often are under the mistaken impression that Mormons believe that by doing good works we are “racking up points” like “green stamps” that are necessary in order to “buy” our way into heaven. If that were the case, then I’m sure I’d have to wait for a double stamp day to get me in. But alas this is yet another falsehood perpetrated by "anti-mormon ministries", there is no big scoreboard in heaven. I’m still unclear on exactly which one of these positions you are coming from. But it really doesn’t matter.

To the untrained reader, this same semantic dichotomy appears in the New Testament. For centuries now, some folks have leaned more toward Paul’s definitions of Faith and Works as found in the scriptures you quoted as well as others found in the books of Timothy and Titus. While others folks have leaned more on James’ “be ye doers of the word not hearers only” as well as his lists of “works” followers of Christ were supposed to be doing. Various interpretations of these have abounded now for centuries. And some folks have found the contrast between the two perspectives so contradictory that they lost faith altogether. The key is realizing who the authors were and the environments in which they wrote. Paul, in his “prior” life, was deeply involved in the mixed, highly charged Roman/Jewish political and religious environment. One of the things that helped settle this for me was realizing that most often when Paul refers to works he is actually referring to the outward workings and ordinances of the form of Judaism being practice in his day. Additionally, when he uses the word faith, it is possible that he, at least on occasion, was indicating allegiance and not “Faith” in the form we are referring to here.

The scriptures you referenced in Romans and Galatians are good examples of this. Looked at in this larger context, what they are actually saying is that; “We have let go of the law and practices of the Jews since they have now been fulfilled in Christ and we have been saved/justified by our Faith in and allegiance to Jesus Christ and his “higher law”. So with that understanding we see that Paul wasn’t condemning “works” in general so much as he was condemning those who were clinging to the practices of Judaism in his day. Interestingly, with this understanding, Paul’s writings now come perfectly in line with James’ and other’s that seemingly require good works (or doing).

Please understand that some of what you’ve just read are my personal conclusions derived from my study and experience. However, Mormonism tends to see the Epistle of James in sharp contrast to Martin Luther’s Sola Fide (justification by faith alone). If I recall correctly, Martin Luther actually rejected the Epistle of James altogether and didn't see it as scripture or at least not inspired writing – something like that. My humble belief is that people generally misunderstand Paul’s semantics as well as his motivations and intentions.

Now for the dichotomies: Why is it that, within most Protestants faiths, the work of sin will send you to hell but good works won’t do anything to get you into heaven? – That just doesn’t make sense and "backsliding" doesn't account for it either.

Then there are also some like “R’s” friend who strongly believe that once a sinner confesses Christ to be their Savior, they are assured of entrance into the Protestant definition of Heaven.

Saved by Faith alone, is the real diabolical doctrine, tainted from its very inception by those who have used it to justify their atrocities. Nope, I’ll take the Mormon doctrine that is far more true to the entire New Testament and not just a few misunderstood or misused scriptures.

So Mormon’s believe in accomplishing physical ordinances, like baptism, because Christ has commanded that we do so – no other justification needed. But he also taught that they are necessary for salvation. We also strongly believe that as followers of Christ we are required to spend our lives devoted to good works, not because they will ensure that we get into heaven, but because Christ taught us that they are the fruit of our faith in him. We believe that as we become followers of Christ we accept a portion of his burden and in this way; we honor his atoning sacrifice by caring for and supporting the Sons and Daughters of God. So no one is saying that the Savior’s Grace alone isn’t sufficient to save – of course it is. What we are say is that the New Testament requires more of us than that.

So it’s a multiple choice question: Salvation comes by:
A) Faith
B) Grace
C) Works
D) All of the above.

That’s right “D” is the answer.

I hope this helps Kathy.

I'm glad you haven't abandoned our conversation yet and thank you for accepting my apology. And I want to start out by saying that I greatly admire your sincerity and honesty.

The issue of whether Mormonism is a cult is really not as important to me as the actual doctrinal issues so I'm just going to skip over that. Although I would like to say that the definition that you guoted does seem to me to define Mormonism mainly because of the more unusual beliefs but then again as a friend (who unfortunately is an atheist ) reminded me; there are unusual beliefs in every religion including Christianity.

As to the anti-Christ issue. It is clear in the Bible that there is an ongoing battle with God and Satan with the goal of Satan being the taking of as many souls as he can until God stops him. As the Bible states... God will ultimately win but until then Christians believe that we need to/should fight for those souls as well. We need to fight the anti-Christ. He is God's enemy and therefore our enemy. And that, without a doubt, is what I believe Bill Keller's mission is...to stand up against Satan. And believe me... he does not just come after the cultist religions... on a regular basis he critisizes our own Christian church leaders for not standing up to Satan's works for fear it will negatively affect their income / offerings. And I don't doubt for a minute that the anti-Mormon movement started the way that you described. No question that the desire for money and power are the reigning motivation of many – even among the self proclaimed 'religious'. Selfish desires are our greatest human weakness and Satan's "ace in the hole" so to speak.
Cephas, do you honestly believe that the people at the top in the Mormon religion are immune to this weakness? Is not Romney's bid for the white House an attempt to strengthen and empower the Mormon establishment?... of course you will say no to this but I find it very plausable and probable. I have read several things about the Mormons plans for getting a man in the White House but I won't repeat them now. And I understand how you wouldn't want to believe that a Mormon could result to sending death threats but your lack of belief is somewhat irrational because there are always 'bad apples' in every bunch. And the bad apples in this scenario are the ones who are aggressively trying obtain that goal of putting a Mormon in the most powerful position in the world. I'm going to include some words from Bill Keller's daily devotional – this one was written several days after he made his well known statement: " A vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan".

For the nearly 8 years I have been writing the Daily Devotional and the over 4 years of doing the TV program, some of the most viscous attacks on our technical infrastructure, on me personally, have come when I expose the lies of the satanic Mormon cult. This time was no different, except it was at an unprecedented level of ferociousness since I was taking on their greatest hope to capture the most powerful office in the world. We had our website and servers attacked relentlessly all weekend. I've received 12 death threats so far in addition to the scores of emails telling me that "someone will visit me when I least expect it." I refuse to live in fear and having dealt with these types of threats for the past 8 years, have learned how to use the common sense the Lord gave me and ultimately trust Him to watch over me as I serve Him each day.

I know Bill Keller's words are harsh, and you may still choose not to believe his claims but as I said earlier, I believe there are bad apples in every bunch.

And speaking of bad apples, your wife's grandfathers Baptist Minister definitely fits that description... really there are no words to describe what he did. I'm sure that he was a big motivator in causing your wife's relatives to switch to Mormonism. His is a perfect example of the kind of poison and damage that selfish human desires produce.

Ok... now your statement about the Catholic's belief that they believe in salvation by a mixture of faith, works and grace has got my feathers a little bit ruffled... I know about as much about the Catholic's doctrine as I do the Mormons but from what I do know I believe they are not on the right track either concerning alot of things. But the question I have now is why Bill Keller doesn't critisize the Catholics in the same way as the Mormons if they believe the same doctrine concerning salvation. I am going to present that question to him and hopefully he will answer me. I am very confidence that he has a justifiable explanation. When I get an answer I will pass it along if this blog is still up. He did certainly condemn the Popes words last year stating that a non-Catholic could not enter Heaven. ( and he made a public call for the Pope to step down )

I don't agree with the idea that Martin Luther 'invented' the 'concept' of salvation coming by faith alone. The official doctrine may not have existed before him but the concept was certainly there from the beginning when the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:28 ...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

and in Galatians 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

You stated that "Mormons don't believe in working our way to Heaven" but the scripture in the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to support that: For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23, pg. 100).... it states that works are required!!

If you believe in following all of the scripture then what about the verses I quoted above?

Interpretations and context of the scriptures could make us go round and round forever it seems. There has to come a time for everyone when you just have to make a choice as to which belief is correct.

I choose to believe in the doctrine that says that we can ONLY be saved by the grace of God thru our faith in Christ and not by anything else. And in response to his saving grace I will HUMBLY do all the good works that I can. If after receiving the knowledge of his grace I do not produce good works then as James explained, my faith would not be real or it would be of a different kind... " a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths WITHOUT trust in Christ as savior". ( the demons believe this much) ( NIV text note for verses 14-26 of James chapter 2 ) This Christian doctrine does not exclude the importance of good works, it is merely stating that good works are not to be included in our saving grace. They are to be separate. " For a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law. ( Romans 3:28)

Cephas, doesn't it make more sense and is more reverential to give God FULL credit for the gift of our salvation. Why do Mormons insist on receiving part of the credit thru good works? There is no way we can do ANYTHING to make ourselves righteous.

What is the harm in giving all the credit to God and also doing good works. Do Mormons think that if you don't include the requirement of good works in order to receive salvation that people would just not do any / or enouph good works? In other words that we must be forced to do good works? That God's love and the gift of grace that He has given us wouldn't be enouph to prompt us to show our gratitude thru good works? That doesn't say much for one's faith does it? If we are not prompted to do good works out of love and grace then the problem is not in lack of good works it is in our faith.

What Bible are you reading from? I personally use the King James Version not one that has been changed by modern man...and his definitions which I have been told by my Evangelical friends tend to water down the real meaning.

From your comments it seems to me that I left you with the impression that works is all it takes. The scriptures clearly state that faith and works go hand in hand. There is no way to confuse "faith without works is dead". Faith is a must. Works (obedience) is must. There is no altering/confusing/spinning that statement. Faith alone is dead.

My best friend is a born-again and we've had this discussion many times. He insists that if you say you believe in Christ then you are automatically saved. That after that point of saying that you accept Christ, there is nothing you could to jeopordize your salvation....that you will go to heaven. He says that you could rape and kill a million people, but if previous to doing all of that you said you believed in Christ, then you would still go to heaven. How is that possible? I can't find any scriptures that supports that claim.

Going back to James.....the question is rhetorically posed in verse 14. It is then answered in verses 15 and 16 with an example of how faith is nothing if we don't take care of our fellow sister or brother that is naked or hungry. It uses Abraham as an example in later verses showing that he exercised his faith and obeyed. The immediate verse after says "that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." I don't know how much more clear it can be.

I could go on and on, but I think that Cephas makes other great comments and that they suffice.

Works are the result / proof of a GENUINE, SAVING faith... that is what these verses are implying.

Verse 14 ... " though a man SAY he have faith, and have not works.." It is implied that this faith is not genuine because if it were, good works would FOLLOW. This verse sets up the CONTEXT for the rest of the verses. The NIV Bible explains...
In verses 14-20,24,26 the word faith is not used in the sense of genuine, saving faith. Rather, it is demonic (v 19), useless (v 20) and dead (v 26).

Verse 17... " Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Of course faith without works is dead because it is no better than the faith that the demons have ( verse 19). Note that Faith is PRIMARY and works follow in response to the faith. The scripture from the Book of Mormon implies that WORKS MUST COME FIRST and then Grace is received. This CONTRADICTS the scriptures in the Bible.

Verse 21 standing alone would seem to support your claims but in the context that was set up with the beginning verse (14) and ESPECIALLY the following 23rd verse CLEARLY states that we are justified by FAITH..... " Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness".

Other verses that support justification by faith alone....

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith APART from observing the law.

Galations 2:15 & 16
" We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile' sinners know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

In reference to your question about: “going to Hell if you don’t believe Joseph Smith”. I said before that we didn’t believe we had “exclusive” rights to the path to “Heaven” and I meant it. It may surprise you to learn this but we don’t believe you’re going to Hell just because you not a Mormon and we don’t believe your preacher is a hireling of Satan either. But Protestants certainly believe that we’re going to Hell if we don’t share their 16, 17 and 18th century views – don’t they. The Mormon definition of Salvation is a little more complicated that the Protestant Heaven & Hell scenario – again the LDS view is a little more rooted in scripture. I’ll urge you to study Christ’s comments about “Many Mansions in my Father’s Kingdom”, Paul’s references to multiple degrees of glory (one of the sun and one of the moon etc) and the 3rd Heaven Paul speaks of in 2Cor 12:2(KJV). Then seriously ask a Mormon Missionary to explain it to you, they have flip charts and everything to walk you right through it. There is a Hell and it is a seriously awful place, Mormons normally refer to it as "Outer Darkness" where there will be weeping, wailing and nashing of teeth. But, and of course I'm not the Judge of this, but I'd bet you're not headed there.

I've not yet abandoned our conversation. Now that the holidays are over and I've returned to work, I don't have the spare time I did.

I'd like to thank "Yanqui" and "R" for joining our conversation and you for the tone that has been maintained as well as the apology – thanks.

Yes, I'm familiar with Billy Graham, I grew up less than 20 miles from his Mansion, Headquarters and Training Center. The HQ and Training Center are easy to spot, but I used to be able to point out his home in the Mountains near Black Mountain NC. My Sister-in-Law's Sister was his personal secretary, up until she retired – many years ago now. I have a great deal of respect for him. I am less familiar with his sons work.

But respecting Billy doesn't mean I think he is right. Princeton and Wikipedia define a CULT as: a term designating a cohesive group of people devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be outside the mainstream and an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices. The term has been high jacked by evangelicals and the like to mean something it doesn't. So if you want to call Mormonism a cult – go right a head I won't be offended. But with these definitions you might be. A little humor there.

At any rate, I do have to make a correction to something I said earlier, the "MM" website(s) doesn't actually ask you outright for donations, they are just trying to get you to buy their wares that really amount to little more than Religious Pornography – to coin a phrase.

You mentioned the Anti-Christ. Theologically, Mormons do not deny that an Anti-Christ may be coming or is perhaps present with us. We just think that focusing on such things detracts us from focusing our lives on Christ, so you don't hear us speaking of him too very much. As a matter of CUSTOM (note I didn't say doctrine) we believe that there are different types of Anti-Christ that we personally need to be more mindful of. Some are people; those who teach false doctrine, tare us down or destroy our self respect or encourage us to deny the Christ, some are things: addiction, pornography, greed, etc. You get the idea.

Kathy, I'll do my best to answer your questions at least briefly, my last post was rejected 3 or 4 times – I think because it was too long. Motivation: Kathy, I grew up in multiple Bible belt towns, in the hotbed of anti-mormon fervor in the 70’s and 80’s. In other words I’ve heard it all before. It all comes back around to Money and Power base. When any part of your local preacher’s living is based on the money he gets from you. He is going to view anyone that upsets that apple cart as a threat. The LDS Church’s clergy is 95% un-paid. There are 15 leaders who are technically on the payroll, but as I understand it, even for them, if they are independently wealthy before they are “called” to those positions they do not draw a salary either but the Church will pay their expenses. Other leaders also get some expenses repaid, but they receive no salary from the congregation nor the Church. This money comes from Tithes paid privately by members (not a single collection plate anywhere) Back in the 1800’s and early 1900’s Mormon Missionaries would arrive in an area and entire congregations would leave their old Churches and join the LDS Church, so Anti-Mormon Ministries were born and have become an industry unto themselves. I’ve listened to the “Bible Answer Man” himself say “I don’t really have anything against most Mormon Bishop’s, they are good men, but every one of them would steal your entire congregation if he could”. To them it was a matter of professional courtesy not to “steal” from each other – they said as much. I asked myself at the time – are they really concerned about the souls in their congregation – over and over again the answer was, nope it was a business, a compassionate one at times, but a business just the same. I can’t tell you the number of times I heard preachers in church and in revivals say things like: “If you pay my hotel bill tonight I’ll come back tomorrow”. My wife’s grandfather’s Baptist Minister came to him on his death bed and told him that if he didn’t donate to the baptism font fund that he would die and go to hell – I kid you not, on his death bed in front of my wife’s Grandmother – they later became Mormons. The LDS Church simply isn’t run that way. The Lord’s church shouldn’t be.

As for Pastor Bill Keller’s death threats from Mormons, sorry don’t believe it. Not happening from active, faithful members and certainly not from Church Leaders. They are either coming from some Lune or he’s making them up. If they were real, the FBI wouldn’t wait for him to ask them to get involved.

End part I