what's your point bob? you lost me…

Why are the people who are against "big government" so frequently willing to legislate people's behaviors? Is that not an exercise in big government?
What would happen if the government legislated that only gay marriages would be recognized and heterosexual marriages would be null and void? How would that make you feel?

Half of you are a bunch of bloody idiots. You say that gay marriage is forbidden by Christianity and Jesus and the Bible and whatever other religious notions you have. Fine- believe that. It's a free country. What I don't understand is why or even how it affects you. You are not being forced to be gay, or be in a relationship with a gay person, it's not going to physically harm you or hurt your marriages- so why would you care? And DON'T say christianity, or jesus, or the bible. Just because gay marriage goes against YOUR religion, why does it have to be against everybody else's? If gay marriage doesn't affect you personally, then why should it be banned because YOU don't believe in it?

If gays marry, and you don't like it, you can ignore it, no big deal. We all have to ignore things everyday in society that we don't like. But depriving gays of marriage is not fair to them, just because YOU don't believe in it! You're not even involved. Just let them do what they want. Don't penalize them for your beliefs, not everyone shares them. And don't come back and say I'm contradicting myself by saying that not everyone shares the same beliefs- you're right. But I think people who are against gay marriage ignoring it everyday, especially since it doesn't involve them, is fair as opposed to depriving gays of their rights. Balance the scale.

Let's translate some "Liberalese"
53% oppose….44% support = "a slim majority"
53% this summer….55% now = "unchanged"

On the other hand:
Obama 52% McCain 47% = "a Landslide"

Let me throw in a history lesson

"The economy is much worse than we thought"…..Bill Clinton 1993
Two sentences before proposing a major tax hike…

"the economy is much worse than we thought"…Joe Biden 12/2008

@REV. BON
——

Your comments make me sick. To even suggest that gay people are into animals justifies your lack of intelligence and understanding.

To people who point to the bible:

you know that stuff was made up, right?

None of it's real… I can understand if this was the 1700s or something but we have…. science now.

Anything arguments you had that existed before the state constitution existed are pointless…. so this whole 'since the beginning of time' or 'in the bible' man and woman argument is silly.

my neighbors Bill and LInda, just told me they were going to end their marriage when gay marriage becomes legal. GIVE ME A BREAK! What a joke. Just let us live like we desire. We wont change anyone elses marriage status — we promise!

It's adorable when people claim that heterosexual marriage is the only "traditional" marriage. The first recorded gay marriage predates Christianity and went on for centuries before Christians started executing gays. Don't spout off your uneducated ignorance regarding tradition, because you only expose yourselves as the fools you are.

Don't spout off your misinformed "voters' will" garbage, either. The will of the founding fathers (who have somehow become near-deified in modern America) was for blacks to be considered three-fifths of a person. We changed it because we came to realize that it was stupid. It does not matter what voter opinion is. Public opinion was once strongly against blacks marrying whites and women voting. Equality transcends the proportion of prejudiced fools who scream about how evil and threatening something that doesn't involve them is. It's about unalienable rights, not government "permission".

Black students needed military escorts when let in to public schools. If the National Guard has to be there for the first gay marriages in Hickville and Howdy-Doody-City, so be it. Fact is, change is coming, and your children and grandchildren will look upon you close-minded bigots the same way we look on our pro-segregation ancestors—as heartless monsters.

Marriage is not a sacred institution. It is a social contract that was instituted to protect property through heirship. Early marriages had nothing to do with love, were arranged, often between people who had never met before the marriage. It is still a social contract, and as such, all members of our society, should under our laws, have the same rights. Ironically, many members of the moral majority in public office have been caught doing the very thing they are condemning so loudly. Sadly, they didn't have the guts or integrity to admit the truth to themselves or to others. Also, if you think homosexuality is unnatural, you obviously know little about animals.

heres my take… if religion is the reason for denying marriage as it's defined..then any marriage that was not done by religious leaders is now null and void. This pertains to half of my family.

Oh here we go…those making statements such as "i have gay friends", its the same as saying you have black friends and claiming not to be prejudice. I had a straight fellah tell me once, blacks can't change the color of their skin but gays can change who they hold hands with. So I asked him…"you like girls right?, he says ..yep. I say, so you could conciously make a decision NOT to like girls and you could just decide to like boys right..he's like HELL NO" I said exactly. Being gay is not a CHOICE. I remember when I was as young as 5, liking girls. It was as natural to me as being heterosexual is to straight people. I tried to be "normal". I dated guys, slept with guys, married a guy. It just wasn't "normal" to me. I tried suicide, drugs, alcohol, just anything to make me feel better because everyone was telling me how "wrong" I was to like girls. Well, finally God got a message thru to me and let me know it was Okay to love who I wanted to and I said to heck with it and loved who I wanted to. Now, I'm in a long term relationship and happy with it. But, it was a journey getting here. After an 8 yr relationship with a woman, she decided to take my truck and everything I owned. She took mine, left me her piece of junk and took off. Well then, she wanted it back and for me to have nothing so she had me arrested for grand theft auto. During my trial, a witness stood up and said " if this were heterosexuals we wouldn't even be here!" "it's only because marriage isn't legal between 2 women that you can use felony laws to treat their civil situation like a crime!"..Well..it took the jury bout 10 mins to vote a foreman and get the "Not guilty" verdict to the judge. But, if it had been a bunch of bigots, I could have been in prision 15 yrs for driving my own vehicle that I PAID for. How's that for equality? It's BS. Time to quit discriminating against people for being what God made them.

Support for gay marriage has increased significantly over the past 10 years.

Same with the Gays in the Military issue. In 1993 when Bill Clinton tried to lift the ban against gays in the military, only about 52% of the population agreed.

Gays are increasingly accepted as part of the fabric of our society.

And that's a good thing.

What makes me sad is that marriage is a touchstone for such heated debate-people act as if it's taking something away when it's not. So it's ok for someone to be "married" for 54 hours or 8 times, but not if they're gay? I mean, come on. As the mainstream, it must be nice to make the moral judgements on other people's relationships instead of practicing what you really are taught in the Bible-mostly that you should be KIND to your fellow man, and let God do the judging. And here people will donate tons of money, time and effort to defeating gays being allowed to marry, when we have poverty, an economic crisis, a war, homelessness, child abuse, domestic abuse, cancer, hunger, and a litany of other real issues that don't warrant the same media coverage or outrage from people. That's where the church should be focused…and again, if you get a marriage license in order for it to be considered legal (you have to do that even if you get married in a Church) it is somethin that should be granted to all consenting adults regardless of orientation.

Oh and everyone's like "Why aren't civil unions good enough"…um, ok, then make it that way for everyone. If you don't want other people to be married so badly, why do you belittle the fact that they do? Seriously its unnerving and also-there were laws in many other civilizations and countries that matched the Ten Commandments (even in BC) so yeah, killing and stealing has pretty much always been against the law, so I don't know where you're going with that argument.

To Ran…Abortion rights and Gay rights cannot be compared. Marriage is a religious union between two couples. I do support same sex partnerships and the legal rights that go with them. If the majority of the people say they do not want to grant marriage to gay's then I will stick with it the same as I will stick by who the people elect for president. Abortion, on the other hand, is the killing of a living organism. I bet you are the same person who opposes the slaughter of animals for food. Here is an argument. Why is the sucking of a living embryo out of someone not considered detroying a life form? At least with a cow, we use it to feed ourselves and survive. You hide behind science when it comes to global warming. Well, I am going to hide behind science that says an embryo is a living organism.

It seems if you object to gay marage it's real hard to have an opinion posted on this blog.

Gays have a good life in America stop pushing to change the morals we want for our children. What about the children? Everyone is so worried about the gays do you stop to think about our children.

Hey Gordon, come on, do I have to tell everyone about you and me?? I seem to remember you weren't anti gay in bed. Do I have to take you on Jerry Springer to expose you????

I keep reading the two main themes above, those for and those against. But one thing really strikes me. Since when did the right to marry, the privelage of having health insurance, the right to property rights become a constitutional issue. Health insurance is something you have earned and is not found in the constitution. Gays/Straights have no constitutional right to marriage or insurance or any of the other arguments. Stop abusing the constitution over this issue.

Rev Bon,
As a black man you should be very atuned to an issue such as this. Just because you are black doesn't mean you own discrimination or make your experience of discrimination any more real than what a gay person feels. I am not gay myself, but I would never judge what another person does with another loving person so long as it doesn't harm others and they aren't harming anyone.

The real problem is that most people, and I'm pretty sure you are one of them, believe that being gay is a choice. The only way that we will get past this is to somehow prove that being gay is something you're born with which is very difficult. But even then it may not be enough with the aversion to science by religions.

I think I've found the bottom line: Gay marriage is different than traditional, so why not have a different name, like civil unions. Then all you have to fight for is same rights as marriage. I have a feeling you won't have to fight that hard, because it is not a contradiction to say no to re-defining marriage and yes to equal rights.

Since the gays would have their equal rights under a civil union, why aren't they satisfied with that? I am so tired of each section of our population calling out "foul" for everything under the sun. In my opinion this is what's wrong with our country; it's not about what's right for our country, but what's right for each person. Everyone wants something….greed, greed, greed. If a civil union gives you the rights you say you want, then why not take that and run with it? I have several lesbian friends who would be more than satisfied with the civil union…even the gays and lesbians can't agree with what they want.

Let's just keep the gays in slavery. Let's keep denying them the rights that everyone else has and maybe someday they will all flee the Land they call home of the free, the brave and the proud. Let's keep it legal to treat them as less than humans. I mean after all, we HAD to give equal rights to blacks and illegals, lets just keep someone around to discriminate against because we can. I know that many of them are doctors, nurses, soldiers etc, but geez, they just DO NOT DESERVE the right to have a legal union with the one they love. This is AMERICA, we don't give rights to homosexuals here. We choose to live in the 19th century and by gosh we should just put whipping posts on every town square for those evil devils who think they should have the right to love who they want. Who do they think they are? Americans? Citizins? Humans?

Signed…a disabled woman veteran, a former Police officer, an EMT, a Volunteer firefighter…a LESBIAN.

And this is a democracy. The majority rules within reason. So let me tell you how bad the legal system is in this country. The state of California spokane and voted down same sex marriage. Now the California supreme court might just overturn the vote. And this is a democracy.

Daniel, Democrats don't need a brain, remember those who voted for Obama are the educated elite. Those who voted Republican can only misuse words such as socialism in an attempt to sound intelligent. PE Obama has already said that he is not in favor of gay marriages, so what are you talking about. If only those phonics skills would kick in.

Vicki and EW – Marriage is a Civil Right, A Religious Institution as well as a Secular Institution.
How many states from the good ol' South banned interracial marriages under the premise that it was 'Against God's Laws'? And how did it ended? Oh yeah, the Supreme Court ruled that THEY WERE WRONG on any account possible. So, yes, marry (MARRY not unite in a civilian way) anyone that wants to marry you (and who also has the right – i.e. is not under someone's guard – to do that) is a Civil Right, thanks for the brave fellas of the 50's, 60's and 70's.
If you try to force your Religious concept of something down the throat of everybody else, aren't you trying to usurp the right of everybody else to have something to think or say about that same matter? Yeah, there is a lot of resistance against gay marriage due to 'Religious values' of a portion of the society, but the funny part is that the most vocal opposition comes from a religious group THAT ENDORSES POLIGAMY (ok not all of them but it is still blatantly happening right now among them) and MARRIAGES WITH UNDERAGES GIRLS.
There is a separation of Church and State because no one wants that self-proclaimed chosen ones dictates what is right and wrong to think, do or not. Leave it to Iran, Saudi Arabia and other TEOCRACIES.
I don't know any gay couple not because I choose not to, I simply don't know. Hey, it happens. But since most people that choose not to have any contact with gay people due to a (ridiculous) belief that they are wrong (and according to whom they are -besides them of course, since neither the law or Psychology says that is wrong to be gay), here's my opinion:
They have their CONSTITUCIONAL right to MARRY as much as anyone has.

Folks, marriage is NOT a religious institution. if it was, you wouldn't need a marriage license from city hall in order to get it. Also-not everyone subscribes to Christianity, so by saying "God is in the mix" leaves out everyone who isn't religious or of the same faith. Marriage was a social contract used to expand land and holdings-what's so romantic about sending you daughter of with a few sheep? It was about financial stability and continuing a blood line. If you want LEGAL marriage rights it is about government NOT religion, so everyone who says its a civil right is correct. I think LOVE is LOVE and we should promoting people being happy and cared about be embracing-isn't that what Christianity is all about? Isn't this the same faith that was persecuted under the Romans? And now you want to use religion to persecute others. The only law handed from Jesus, is the Golden Rule-so this basically goes against that bc this certainly isn't how I want to be treated.

The margin they're referring to is 53 to 55 (not the points between for and against).

Let's see, one of the Ten Commandments (#6) is against killing, so I guess due to separation of church and state we need to legalize murder. Also that pesky commandment about stealing (#8) has to go too, so theft and robbery need to be legalized as well.

20 countries and 5 US states recognize civil unions. It must be working somewhere.

James in Nebraska, how does polygamy or marrying an underage person hurt you either?

Linda in MS, so you mean that spending lots of money can influence a vote outcome? Wow, wonder who would be President Elect if Obama had kept his promise to use public financing.

Hate to break it to all of you supporters of gay marriage. It is not discrimination in any way shape or form to forbid same sex marriage. The logic is simple: I, a heterosexual, am not allowed to marry another man, therefore forbidding you, a homosexual, from marrying another man cannot by definition be discrimination. No where in the constitution is there a right to marry whomever you wish. If you look back upon our history, we have had marriages for financial reasons, political reasons, all dictated by familes rather than individuals involved in the marriage. Not fair you say? Perhaps. But discrimination? Not by any legal definition. The judges on the Supreme Court of Cali. who found it to be discrimination were legislating from the bench and had no law to support their decision and should be disbarred.

i remember when it was illeagl for a black man and white women to marry also—but thankfully we sane people beat back the crazy right bible thumpers and move forward out of the crazy past into the sane forwardthinking future.

I think we should ask one of the openly gay members of Obama's cabinet – oh wait……….

I say if they don't have the full rights that all citizens have, then they should be exempt from being taxed as full citizens. Gay marriage doesn't affect any of us. Trying to stop it is just some people's way of trying to negatively affect those who refuse to live as their lives to appease others.

It's hatred in the name of Jesus.

@ Daniel Cabrera………. please stop with the LIES we had enough from the Palin/McCain ticket!

I am a Democrat, Catholic, wife, mother & grandmother….. 50 plus. Here is the thing that most people who want to allow Gay marriage do not understand, Marriage is a Sacrament. To those of us who are religious and from traditions that are ancient Marriage, we believe was designed by GOD, for a man and a woman.

For us, Christians, marriage is SACRED. That does not mean, that I hate anyone! I believe that Civil Unions should be allowed, that Gay people should be allowed to adopt children.

Asking Christian whom have believed that marriage IS sacred to change, simply so that some people can have 'their way' is like asking Jews or Muslims to believe there are many gods! Not possible.

Why is it that Civil unions are not enough?

Why not leave Church and State divided, you want to marry, marry in the church. Or IF you want a secular or civil union let a judge marry you. Everyone would be fine with that, since SO many people are unchurched any way!

Happy Holidays & Merry Christmas!

Why Oh why is this still an issue with some people in America? There are worse things to concentrate on. I guess people can have a cause, but, I never understood why some of them just don't have a GOOD cause…Ask yourself, HOW would 2 people who love each other affect YOUR life!!!??? Is it just because you were TAUGHT to hate? The bible is just a shield some people hide behind while THEY do things that are considered worse in their lives. EVERYONE has a closet. What's in yours? STOP THE HATE!

GET REAL….you know what? Social liberals are constantly contradicting themselves because on the one hand they say, as you say…."Let people live how they want". But then if that were really true then it would be OK for Old Guys to have sex with little girls. Or people have sex with horses and dogs. Or old women to have sex with little boys, or priests to molest little boys. All of these are lifestyles and this is how some people want to live, but why do we not consider these things ok. LET PEOPLE LIVE HOW THEY WANT, RIGHT!? Let's allow people to marry their dogs or horses. Its not hurting anyone, and it make them happy. LET PEOPLE LIVE HOW THEY WANT….DOWN WITH MORALITY, RIGHT!?

Vicki,

Of course its not good enough because they want to change the religious institution. Secretly its about changing the ideology of the religious institution. That's why civil unions are not good enough.

Prop. 8 was not explained well enough. I looked at Prop 8 as a civil rights issue. I wish the No on 8 side had spent more time explaining that to voters. Explain to people about tax laws, insurance benefits, inheritance laws, etc. People get so hung up on the word marriage and all they think about is wedding ceremonies and stupid things like that. No – it is an equal rights issue.

It amazes me that there is still a group of people, in this day and age – in the United States, that are discriminated against and denied equal rights. I hope it is overturned

I like the idea of Civil Unions for any two people that want to enjoy all the legal benefits there of. 'Marriage' is a term that religious institutions should confer on two people at their discretion. Some churches and other houses of worship will marry two people of the same sex. In addition, many will only marry two people of the opposite sex. Unless one likes the idea of church and state as one; or, perhaps, they are prejudice (even with sincere religious beliefs), there should not be a problem. As a result, certain Americans will not be denied legal protections afforded to the majority of citizens. Ultimately we can not have citizens singled out for unequal rights. That is highly unconstitutional.

EW,

I absolutely agree!!….its just a trick to try and force the religious institutions to recognize homosexuality and approve of their lifestyles. First the religious institutions must recognize same-sex marriage. Then what's next; the church will be forced to not speak out on something that they do not approve of. They try to call it a "civil right" to make it look like they are the victims and draw a sympathy vote (which most Americans have fell for). But really they are an overbearing, very powerful community that is trying to FORCE their ideology onto others. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! This is not a "Civil Rights Movement", and as a black man I am HIGHLY offended that you would compare this mess to what took place many years ago. This is just a group of people that is trying to force their alternative lifestyle onto the American public.

It's called "Tyranny of the Majority". But I suppose your home school doesn't teach civics, does it?

Can someone explain how a ban on gay marriage is taking away rights? It was never a right in all of recorded history, so it can't be taken away. Vicki5, I have the same question. Why aren't civil unions that grant the same legal benefits as marriage good enough?

Keven @ 551: I guess your home school doesn't teach civics.
Google: "Tyranny of the Majority". Read the Wikipedia entry.
Now, what was that you said about "this is a country where the majority make the decision"

You rushthuglicans have no idea what Democracy is all about, do you.

Why was it even put on the ballot if it does not really matter? Talk about a waste of time and money. That is why I find Calif. to be the joke of the U.S.

As long as political and religious "leaders" allow their followers to stay obsessed about the genitalia, reproductive tracts, and other sexual features of their fellow human beings, as long as these private physical parts of our anatomies are considered fair game for the public forum, then this kind of blind, controlling, and hate-filled frenzy will prevail. To those who would tell others what to do in the privacy of their homes, get your noses out of our crotches. To those who can't stop obsessing about womens' reproductive tracts- get a sex life of your own.

Call it what you want, I think it is queer behavior whether it be in animals or human. I appreciate that the majority still agree.

1) Marriage is a "religious" definition? Really? Because when you go down to the court house to get a license it says MARRIAGE LICENSE, not CIVIL UNION LICENSE.

and

2) @FreeNLovIt – "Same-sex marriage is forbidden in the Bible."
Chapter and verse please….

Mike Philly December 23rd, 2008 5:35 pm ET

Vicki… How about if before you get on your ideological high horse and try to preach down to the rest of us, you educate yourself. Pick up any newspaper or log onto any news web site and research the topics about which you hope to enlighten others. Because you come across like a moron. It is well documented that civil unions do not work and do not give anyone the rights and privileges everyone–gay or straight–deserves. Wise up.
————————————-
Not using it to slam anyone, but this is my point. There should be NO rights or privilages for MARRIAGE, at ALL. The only privilage there is, is being the spouse of your loved one. Government giving special treatment to married people is asenine.

So why don't we do this, and I'm serious: Remove ALL special rights and privilages that marriage grants, and then lets see if this is really an issue any more.

I don't think there should be any Gay Marriages…..I don't believe in that at all, but there should be legal unions to give them the same rights.
This is my own opinion and nothing to do with any church groups….I can think for myself without any church telling me what to think and do.
People have a right to fall in love with whomever they choose and if it is one of your own gender that is your own choice and who are we to judge that love.
I do however draw the line in this notion of "marriage" that I feel is going too far.

No Marriage should be given a legal definition. Whether it be between a man and a woman or two same sex people. This isn't about hating gays for all of us, some of us simply don't like ANY special treatment of marriage.

It's a bond between two people and should have ZERO effect from a legal stance. I voted for Prop 8 on those conditions. I agree that we currently have protected status for married couples of opposite sex, but I think we should do away with that as well.

There's more to it people. Not everyone who voted for prop 8 has something against gays. Get married if you like, don't…but don't go around expecting special treatment because you are married (that goes for straights and gays alike).

Sincerely,
Happily Married

@ EW

Nobody is inventing any rights. There is no reason why a union between a man and a woman should have LEGAL rights with respect to taxes, inheritence and their children while a union between two same sex partners gets none. Throw them out of your intolerant medievil religious institutions if you want, but they're equal in the eyes of the law.

Angels cannot marry US, humans. It is forbidden and is not a healthy relationship. Same-sex marriage is forbidden in the Bible.

To Ran

Eighteen days after conception, IT has a heartbeat. It is a human. I watched a documentary in South America. She was a nurse and she performed illegal abortion operations. One day a client of her died from her operation and she was thrown into jail. There, she discovered God and she repented of her sins, helping to kill babies through abortions. God told her it was wrong. Life starts with a heartbeat and ENDS with a heartbeat. In the hospital, we are measured by heartbeats, not limbs and legs.

53% is a slim majority, but Obama getting 52% is a strong mandate. nice double standard.

"I wander if Santa Claus will have the marvelous idea to give as special present to each democrat, A BRAIN!, so they can descern intelligently to vote republican on the next elections (if we ever get another elections)."

You wander that? Really? And descern? In this language, Mr. Cabrera, we spell it discern, and we do not use it as a synonym for decide. You are as full of syntactical and spelling errors as you are full of… you get the picture. If you're going to insult liberals, insult our morality, not our brains, as liberal ideas are based on what is logical rather than what is religious.

And truly, what is the problem with gay marriage? How does it hurt me? Are they really secretly campaigning to make everyone gay? Or is it just that people think opposing gay marriage will make people think they're not closet cases? (see: Larry Craig.) Please, just because you think it's wrong doesn't mean it is. Go protest the first amendment while you're at it.

I'll bet that most Gays wish they had voted for someone else.

Studies show that GAY men have the highest rate of AIDS. This is America, but you gotta draw the line somewhere between right and wrong. In Noah's day, people lived freely the way they wanted and there was CHAOS. The sins of the cries of people were heard up to the heavens. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed!!!

OK let's try this one. George Bush and Cheney have been molesting me for the past 8 years and I haven't seen anyone on this site complain. Let's grow up and allow gay men and women make their own decisions concerning there life.

Vicki, Vicki, Vicki. If you don't know what the difference is, then I think it's pretty obvious why you're experiencing trouble having an intelligent conversation.

For all you Rick Warren Hater, America also belongs to the STRAIGHT!!! Proud to be an STRAIGHT American!!

To Ran…Abortion rights and Gay rights cannot be compared. Marriage is a religious union between two couples. I do support same sex partnerships and the legal rights that go with them. If the majority of the people say they do not want to grant marriage to gay's then I will stick with it the same as I will stick by who the people elect for president. Abortion, on the other hand, is the killing of a living organism. I bet you are the same person who opposes the slaughter of animals for food. Here is an argument. Why is the sucking of a living embryo out of someone not considered detroying a life form? At least with a cow, we use it to feed ourselves and survive. You hide behind science when it comes to global warming. Well, I am going to hide behind science that say an embryo is a living organism.

I am single and I dont have kids. My sisters are married and there's about six kids running around when they come over to visit us. Bottomline, if we are GAY, America will have no future. How are you supposed to reproduce? As a Christian, it is immoral and it goes against the law set forth by God. Angels CANNOT marry us. There are consequences (giant evil men/women). Same-sex will cause a disruption in the family structure. Like I said, I can love my brother but I dont have to accept the fact that he comes home DRUNK.

"Freedom is not the right to do what we ant, but what we ought" – Abe Lincoln

The gay/lesbian movement would benefit from doing things a bit different. Instead of continuing to try to re-define marriage, they should try to obtain the legal rights given by civil unions/domestic partnership at the federal level.

Right now, some states allow same sex couples to enter into domestic partnerships (California does), but these rights exist only at the state level, so if a couple leaves California, other states would not recognize their rights. The gay movement should fight to obtain the domestic partnership rights at the federal level.

Stop trying to re-define marriage, that is a church-thing. btw, I voted no on prop. 8.

Vicki are you related to Gov. Palin?? It sounds like both of you Idiots are from the same village. Who's your leader?

The ONLY people that should be able to decide on gay marriage is GAY PEOPLE! They are the ONLY ones affected by it. If they want it, they should have it. It's their business, and no one else's.

this will change.

Kevin, you said: "Imagine if all the people who didn't want Obama to be president whined as much as gays did."

——
Um, they whine more and louder, and angrier and more annoyingly. You are a little off base, though. Yes, a majority of folks seem to not want gays to have the same rights as everyone else, however, we are supposed to give voice to the minority as well, that's what we have reps. for, to make sure everyone is heard.

la guy: OK then, that societal group of Americans. Come on, get real and have some real discussions would you. It sounds like non-deplume is onto something – as far as solutions go. You guys can call me an idiot all you want, but that doesn't help. I'm trying to help you find solutions, and it sounds to me like you should fight to make civil unions more equal to marriage. Seems simple to me. Or, would you rather just scream and holler.

Why were there no locks on all the closets????

@ naqib

Seeing as how I'm single (and straight, since you useem to be confused about whether support for gay rights makes someone gay themselves), I get no tax breaks. Married couples get to file a joint return and, bottom line, it results in a lower tax burden…even without children in the mix.

Common sense and morality prevailed!!!!

If a man has sex with a child, he is a pervert.

If a man has sex wih an animal, he is a pervert.

So, shouldn't a man be a pervert if he has sex with another man???

None of the above are NORMAL !!!!!! And you can go to JAIL for the 1st two.

The Church is Forcing their beliefs on people?
Forcing you to do what?

You don't like religion, just it's sacred terminology.

Makes a lot of sense.

Mike from Philly: As I said to Obama lady, if you would read all of my posts, I am asking you all what the difference is. If civil unions are not the same as far as rights, then why don't you fight for that? Perhaps it is because you would rather shove your beliefs on those who believe differently than you. Sound familiar?

Keven, nothing gets you more credibility than taking a jab at a minority group. Of course, just about everything else you said is nonsensical anyway. You state: "Read the artlicle [sic] and see the truth, which is this simple fact: The majority of people don't want gay marriage." Do you really think it's that "simple?" If so, you are one of the least intelligent people who has posted on this article. And that's pretty sad, dude.

Voted Obama: I voted Obama too, and I believe just as he does. Equal rights does not mean you have to re-define marriage. If you would read my post, I was asking the "know it all's" like you what the difference is. So, why don't you try having an intelligent conversation instead of just calling names.

Marriage is NOT a civil Right. It is a religous institution.

Please, Democrats, quit inventing Rights. If you want civil unions, fine but marriage belongs to the church, not the state.

ATTENTION PEOPLE:

WE ARE ALL SINNERS IN GOD'S EYES AND WILL BE JUDGED ONLY BY HIM BUT I'M SURE YOU ALL KNOW BY NOW THAT GOD SAID MARRIAGE BELONGS TO A MAN & A WOMAN SO TO ALL THE GAY AND LESBEIN LOVERS WHO ARE MAD @ PRESIDENT OBAMA JUST WAIT HE'S FOR YALL TOO, BUT DON'T TRY AND TELL HIM WHO HE WANTS TO SAY THE PRAYER @ THE HISTORIC EVENT. HE'S ONLY DOING RIGHT BY ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES.

MERRY CHRISTMAS & A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!

Traditional moral family values of our founding-fathers.

Vicki 5. You don't have a clue before you post a comment try educating yourself about civil unions. Civil unions is like having Gary Coleman marry you in Mexico.

Why is this still an issue. Read the artlicle and see the truth, which is this simple fact: The majority of people don't want gay marriage. This is a country where the majority makes the decision. Imagine if all the people who didn't want Obama to be president whined as much as gays did. Do you think people would actually pay attention to them? Do you think they'd get media coverage? No, they wouldn't. So, let's drop the gay issue.
Gays, if you want more votes, go out and make your own kids and have them vote for you. Oh, wait…..

Obama is (technically) going to override Prop. 8.

He said he opposes gay "marriage" (which was political posturing to get the centrists on board) but has also said he will amend federal law to effectively remove any distinction between marriage and domestic partnership. That way, he gives domestic partners all the same rights and privileges, but avoids using the dreaded 'gay marriage' description.

Since many states' tax laws follow the feds, they will too, by proxy, adopt gay marriage.

Look… I really don't think this is such a big deal…. we have always disagreed on most things in this country. The problem is when someone else tries to legislate their morality!

Gay Marriage…. does nothing to straight married couples…. unless, of course, they are afraid that it would cause their own partners to bolt and run! *LOL* Sounds like insecurity to me! I realize that were my husband still alive, it would have no effect on our marrige whatsoever! Live and let live…. I think that is what people forget.

And if you are a Christian, which I am not, you must remember what your Jesus! "Judge not, least ye be judged."…. or something to that effect!

I can't believe that people are so concerned about what 2 people do behind closed doors together… this should not even be a political issue… gay people should have the same rights as everyone else. They're not hurting anyone by being married. Let them have the same rights to misery as the rest of us

Semantics. Pure and simple. I propose we set a POLITICAL definition of "marriage" (or call it something else… "civil union," anyone?) and a RELIGIOUS definition of "marriage." Then give gay couples POLITICAL equality (benefits, status, etc.), and let everyone duke it out on the RELIGIOUS front. This should be an argument for the churches, not the government.

Talk about values all you want, but religion has been moving the goal posts every year. Beating your wife, animal sacrifice, divorce, contraception… if anything goes to show you how relative human value systems are, it's this.

Let people live how they want. In this case, NO ONE'S GETTING HURT. If you think your kids'll get swayed by it, teach them your value systems at home, and hope for the best (once they're old enough, they'll think for themselves anyway). If you think that this will lead to people getting married to dogs, relatives, or young children, then understand that completely different political, social, and ethical concerns come into play in each of those scenarios.

And if it upsets you all that much that someone's challenging a religious value system, than go back to your ex-husbands and ex-wives and tell them "Sorry, God doesn't believe in divorce. We have to stay together, even if it makes our kids mentally ill."

Boered1: I still don't get why civil unions are not good enough. Are you saying that they can't have ceremonies and that somehow they don't mean the same thing??

Matt: I was not contradicting myself. And I still ask the same question. Why aren't civil unions good enough? They are the equivalent of marraige when it comes to rights, and that's what you are fighting for, right? Why the need to re-define the term marriage?

When did 11 points become a slim margin? It's more of a landslide.

Dear Daniel and every other social neo-conservative dingbat:

I am a grown American woman and I value my freedoms just as much as you do. You are the most INSECURE bunch of morons that I have ever had the misfortune of coming across in my lifetime. Do not FORCE me to abide by your narrow, naive, and ignorant view of this world by limiting and taking away MY freedoms and rights, as I am not trying to take anything away from you. I have absolutely ZERO interest in your personal life..least of all who the unlucky fool was that has to live with your last name. You have the right to do as you so please, so LEAVE ME AND MY FREEDOMS ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sincerely sorry that your miserable marriage is based on body parts. But mine will not be based on that no matter how hard you fight to oppress me and everyone else.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS (gasp) are you gone whine about how I didn't say "Xmas"…err…I mean "christmas"???? Grow up, you good for nothing whiners!!!!!!

Vicki… How about if before you get on your ideological high horse and try to preach down to the rest of us, you educate yourself. Pick up any newspaper or log onto any news web site and research the topics about which you hope to enlighten others. Because you come across like a moron. It is well documented that civil unions do not work and do not give anyone the rights and privileges everyone–gay or straight–deserves. Wise up.

Remember separation of church and state? That makes the religious arguments ILLEGAL! This should have never been on the ballot! Who changes the Constitution to take AWAY rights?

To Mark PTD: The reason Prop.8 was shot down in "liberal California"
was because of the enormous amount of money the opposition had to launch anti- gay marriage media attacks. This anti-gay marriage media blitz was funded by the Church of the Latter-Day Saints, or Mormons, who define marriage as a union between one man and several underage women.

Matt

What tax breaks do married people get that you cannot?

Prop 8 seems to scare people because of the word "marriage" people like Daniel who are obviously not so secure in his own skin. I'm not gay but why take away rights from a few because you don't agree?

I propose that we forget about prop-8, and support prop-13. The prop were it makes it illegal to get divorced, since marriage is "so sacred"

I'm pro-choice, but I can understand the pro-life position. But I really can't fathom why my gay friends can't marry. The issue of gay marriage is parallel to the archaic laws about marriage between two races, but not to laws about incest and polygamy as is sometimes claimed. And if a gay woman has a child, isn't it better for that child to be born into a loving same-sex union than into a sham marriage of convenience??

It's so sad that Americans want to deny fellow Americans basic rights. I don't understand why people are so afraid of gay marriage, and who they think it hurts. Dems also voted against it in CA, so it's hard to criticize one side or the other, it seems everyone thinks it's ok to discriminate against gay people, not one of our finer moments.

Gay marriage should and will be legal. These people speaking out against it are the same types who got out their batons in the 60s because they didn't want black people to have civil rights; the same types who railed against women having rights. Progress is inevitable. Sorry rethugs.

Semantics. Pure and simple. I propose we set a POLITICAL definition of "marriage" (or call it something else… "civil union," anyone?) and a RELIGIOUS definition of "marriage." Then give gay couples POLITICAL equality (benefits, status, etc.), and let everyone duke it out on the RELIGIOUS front. This should be an argument for the churches, not the government.

Talk about values all you want, but religion has been moving the goal posts every year. Beating your wife, animal sacrifice, divorce, contraception… if anything goes to show you how relative human value systems are, it's this.

Let people live how they want. In this case, NO ONE'S GETTING HURT. If you think your kids'll get swayed by it, teach them your value systems at home, and hope for the best (once they're old enough, they'll think ofr themselves anyway). If you think that this will lead to people getting married to dogs, relatives, or young children, then understand that completely different political, social, and ethical concerns come into play in each of those scenarios.

And if it upsets you all that much that someone's challenging a religious value system, than go back to your ex-husbands and ex-wives and tell them "Sorry, God doesn't believe in divorce. We have to stay together, even if it makes our kids mentally ill."

Hey Vikki5, If civil unions are equal. YOU accept a civil union for your relationship. You are not better than me. If you get marriage, then so do I. We will NEVER stop until we get full equality. I don't care if you approve of my sexuality. I am not 'slamming' anything on society. I am not looking for your approval. Legally speaking, I deserve the same recognition by the state as you do with regards to civil marriage. WHEN HAS SEPERATE EVER MEANT EQUAL???? People like you make me sick. They support some rights for gays and lesbians, but not ALL. Why do I not deserve all? Whether you think I do or not, I will never stop fighting for them. Honestly, it is really none of your business. You should stay out of something that doesn't concern you. You don't lose any rights by the state extending the right to marry to same-sex couples. Well, you LOSE the 'right' to discriminate against me. TOO BAD. You'll NEVER understand unless you have a child that is gay.

Just imagine if all men married men. Chee, there wouldn't be a world anymore, would there?

I'm trying to figure out how when a gay couple gets married it hurts me…I can't think of any way that it does. Maybe I'm missing the news stories about gays getting married just to go on murderous rampages.

I'm not gay; I am married to a woman. If John and Jack want to get married, good for them and more power to them. People need to stop forcing their beliefs on others.

@Vicki5

—————————

One-sided perspective. The people forced their beliefs on the gay population when it was their constitutional right to marry. I believe it's you that should have been happy the way things were.

The problem is your term 'group'…you have to segregate them in every way. What happened to us all just being Americans?

How ironic. Overwhelmingly, the country wants gays on the battlefield to protect them. But they don't want those same people to have the same rights and privileges they enjoy. Selfish jerks.

11 per cent seems like quite a margin to me. In any other major decision people would respect a margin of this size. Why not this one?

Writing discrimination into the constitution is WRONG no matter how you look at it. It is ironic for the American people who claim to be the leaders of the 'free' world while it's own citizens don't have the same rights. (I've heard Bush say this many times and it's very disturbing).

Oh, and a vote for Obama is a vote for gay rights. So those that put him into office need your head checked if this is such an issue for you.

I support civil unions as a matter of Constitutionality, but leave the term marriage out of it.
A significant number of people don't see the institution of marriage as a RIGHT or a PRIVILEGE, and never have. They believe it is a Divine Directive; even if they don't always 'follow the rules to a tee", marriage is a sacred covenent to many religious affiliations. Their convictions should be respected in a free society, as everyone's should.

Give everyone the same consitutional rights tied to the obligatory contract of Marriage between men and women.
But call it something else.
It is extremely selfish of the Gay Community, who has fought since the earliest civilizations for the right to be proud of who they are, not to recognize the simple argument against Gay Marriage, and reciprocate this respect they dearly cherish to others.

Looks like Daniel Cabrera is away with the fairies again…

The legal significance of marriage should be abandoned for EVERYONE. It's a freekin' disaster. Do you have any idea how much money and time and the amount of court resources WASTED on divorces? Let your church call it whatever you want it to be called. Let your justice of the peace marry everyone and anyone who wants it. Let's just get rid of the legal institution of marriage and the tax breaks and all that other nonsense that goes with it. Problem solved.

Oh, but wait, I hear some protests from some people who are getting LEGAL benefits from it while arguing that others should not share them because they're different…hmmmmmm….

Vicki5

I agree with your point except for one minor concern aif ALL marraiges were performed by a religious authority than your comments make sense and should stand. unfortunately the STATE is involved in marriages now and to exclude a group, who previously had the right, from enjoying a STATE sponsered ceremony is wrong pure and simple. I am not nor will I argue the rightness or wrongness of gays, thqat is really a moot point in this discussion since that rightness and wrongness is vested in religious and not secular authority. Marriages are grounded in secular authority by virtue of the the fact that a justice of the peace can perform one. So to make things fair should we say anyone who was married outside a religious authority should ahve their marriage dissolved? Unless you can agree to that you must agree to restoring the rights of the gay community no matter how you feel about the rightness of what they are doing.

@ Vicki5, who said

"The 55% of people do not want to re-define marriage. That does not mean that they are against equal rights for this societal group."

Self-contradict much?

I'm a straight woman…but I DO NOT get why this is such a problem for so many?

I mean really – most of the gay/lesbian couples I know have been in committed relationships far longer than my straight friends. The divorce static in this country is like 50% – so obviously the state of matrimony doesn't mean that much to the straight folks either because even the "religious" ones aren't that good at it.

If the term MARRIAGE bothers you – try CIVIL UNION. But I think everybody deserves a legal entity to protect their loved ones.

gay marriage should not be legal.

Daniel Cabrera, glad to see someone out there is still inteligent!, and btw I still dont agree with Gay marriage or abortion, neither is right. Marriage by definition is between a man and a woman, and well abortion is just wrong. Im sure some democrat will not appreciate that I voiced my opinion on this subject…but thats too bad.

Merry CHRISTMAS!

This is America.
Land of the free.
Home of the brave.

The very idea that any group in this country is discriminated against should sicken anyone. It's a disgusting, hateful, small-brained thing to do.

What's next? "Nope, sorry, you have brown hair. You can't marry someone with blonde hair. It's not legal."

The 55% of people do not want to re-define marriage. That does not mean that they are against equal rights for this societal group. Why, I wonder, are civil unions not good enough. I don't get it. If civil unions would be enough for this group, then I guess they wouldn't have the opportunity to slam their beliefs on the rest of us. It works both ways people. Take the civil unions and be happy with that, leave marraige alone, and quit slamming your beliefs on the rest of us.

How can you republicans go out in public much less criticize democrats after the past 8 years? Six of which republicans had the presidency and the senate. You run our great country into the ground and you are still clinging to this delusion that somehow anyone with opposable thumbs and an IQ better than a celery stick's should vote Republican? Why? Don't give me that morality crab! Yes Blago is a disgrace so is Senator Stevens from Alaska. There are horibble users on both sides of the aisle. Here's the difference: Democrats don't run their campaigns on morality. Every year the GOP fools gullible people into voting for them based on "morals" that many of them do no possess. Open your eyes!

Since Obama opposes gay marriage should he be permitted to speak at the inauguration?

Daniel: Your incredible INTELLIGENCE is *so* showing in your post…which really has nothing to do with the topic of gay marriage *or* gays in the military. Whatever the RNC is paying you to blogstalk, they're not getting their money's worth.

One could say, "Why let gays marry? Haven't they suffered enough?"

Seriously…I sincerely hope that the day will come when my gay friends – many of whom have been in stable, loving relationships far longer than many of my het friends – are free to live their lives and show their love as easily as the rest of us do, without having to fear discrimination by people who think the Flintstones constitutes "historical documents."

Happy holidays to all, regardless of your denomination.

Well the Democrats obviously don't care much about Gay & Lesbian rights, as was shown in liberal California's recent election results on Prop 8. Guess they don't need the votes these days and their true feelings are freely displayed. My cousin, who is gay, lives in Cali, lobbied hard and contributed heavily against Prop 8, is a die-hard Dem. Hasn't served him worth a darn though.

This issue like abortion is why our country is so divided. There is a simple solution to this issue as well as the abortion one. If you don't want an abortion or against gay marriage then don't have one but do not tell others they can't. Until the far right wing of the republican party gives these ideological issues up they will continue to divide this country. Gays and abortions are not going to go away just because you try to dictate it through some legislation.

Wonder what the results would have been if the question was "Do you support benefits for homosexual couples that are identical to those enjoyed by married heterosexual couples?"

I think people get hung up on the "marriage" part.

Daniel Cabrera: You're an idiot. Go ask the Wizard for a brain. Insulting the intelligence of others while making numerous grammar and punctuation errors is like an extra special Christmas present for liberal Democrats like myself.

I have still yet to see any coherent argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve religion (irrelevant), "that's how it's always been" (imbecilic), or some non-existent threat to hetero marriage.

It's only a matter of time, folks. They shall overcome! Miscegenation was once considered a threat to society, too, and it's now become all but unnoticed. Our president-elect is a product of it. Do you really think you can stop gay marriage forever?!? Not bloody likely.

And given hetero marriage's track record (50%+ divorce rate–and it was only lower in the past because men subjugated women) they have nothing to trumpet about.

Good!!!!

9 percent is not a slim margin as you stated. 3 percent is a slim margin.

" MERRY CHRISTMAS!,MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I wander if Santa Claus will have the marvelous idea to give as special present to each democrat, A BRAIN!, so they can descern intelligently to vote republican on the next elections (if we ever get another elections).

But then that is too much to ask to the old fat guy, for I think he is fed-up with the politics around the world, specially the CHICAGO-CORRUPTED POLITICAL DYNAMICS ATMOSPHERE, FROM WHERE OBAMA COMES FROM!

Happy Holidays everyone!

Sincerely,
Daniel Cabrera
Merrillville, Indiana "