CNN

Obama Victim January 15th, 2009 10:43 am ET
so what???……………………these scum deserve anything they get
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many of the inmates at Guantanamo are in fact, not terrorists at all. But they are being detained for years and years while being tortured for information that they do not have.

Until you are able to correctly identify those you so quickly categorize as 'scum' with such false empowerment, you, in fact, are the 'scum'.

If terrorists have no problem with blowing themselves up to kill others what makes kevin in OH think waterboarding would get them to talk. Waterboarding to terrorists is probably like doing the backstroke in a pool…

dave January 15th, 2009 1:14 pm ET

Thank you for your very well thought out and excellent post

I love watching Jack Bauer on the TV machine too, but you know it's just a TV show, right?

Of course we're angry that Americans were killed in the 9/11 attacks, and of course the immediate EMOTIONAL reaction is to want to painfully torture anyone we think might be responsible. That was my reaction...

Thankfully, even in the US calmer heads sometimes (eventually) prevail and we remember that to do so would not help, but rather hurt future efforts to protect our country and citizens.

Listen to the military and interrogation experts... If we were in an "imminent attack" situation, and could avert it by pulling out some evil terrorists toenails – have at it! But it doesn't, and never has worked that way. There are other techniques that are more reliable and effective...

I'm not against torture because I want to be "nice" to terrorists... I'm against it because it hurts my country 's ability to fight terrorists, and spits on this great nation we've fought for centuries to create and protect.

Amen, Mr. Holder.

Does anyone realize who is held at Guantanamo? The mastermind behind the USS Cole bombing has the possibility of going free if we shut down the prison. I cannot fathom that anyone would think someone who planned and bombed a US warship killing several of our service personnel thinks this person should go free. They do not deserve rights under our Constitution. They shouuld not be allowed on American soil. Where were the rules of engagement when the terrorist attacked us? This is war where people die, not some sporting event. The end result out is we will put a bullet in the head of the attackers rather than worrying about taking prisoners because killing on the battlefield is legal.

At 1/20/13 – Can we move the boarder fence from Texas to SF first? Need to make sure the happy friendly people cannot get out into the regular population of angry disgruntled Americans.

@ Uncle Fester

Do you seriously believe if we do not use waterboarding , the terrorists will treat our captured soldiers nicely ? Think about Daniel Pearl .

This notion that treating the terrorists nicely would make them ' like ' us is absolutely false .

Everyone posting on here should really stop calling people things like "dumb libs" or "hatefilled Democrats" as that doesn't help anything. Calling people names only makes them shut you out and gives them zero reason to listen to your opinions.

Even though the comments I posted on here (or tried to ) show that I definetly don't agree with the liberal viewpoint, I'm not going to bash them because they have different opinions than me. Just make rational arguements and hope that other listen!

MJM – what a good little Nazi you would have made.

richard January 15th, 2009 1:56 pm ET
Only democrats think that cutting off someones head is not Torture but waterboarding is.

Uhhhh.... really? what are you, in 3rd grade?

Uh, cutting off someones head is not torture, it's called Murder. Reading your comment, however, is torture.

Hear hear. Today America is a better place to be. Thank you for that.

hey all you dumb libs.....if it was done right there would be no one left to torture cause if they are on the battlefield and shooting at us then we should just kill them all end of problem and if they pop up again somewhere eles than kill them there too war is hell oh thats right with you guys in charge we will all just get along just fine unless a dumb ole Republican gets in the way and screws it all up and steps on your flowers {;-)

Torture leads to false information. Part of the reason we're in Iraq is that we tortured al-Libi until we changed his story so that there were WMD. Now we have thousands of dead US soldiers and many more dead Iraqis and oops! no WMD.
There is not one verifiable instance Bush can point to that's proven torture works.
Abu Zubaydah (sp?) was giving information readily until we tortured him and he went completely insane and has been useless.
We gave up our souls and have gotten nothing in return.

@dAVE
It used to be that people would rather die with honor than live fearful and cowardly, but I guess that day is gone. Bravery and torture are incompatible. Ponder that reality for a bit.
-–
Well said- Freedom isn't free. Living in an open and free country
comes with risk.
There are a whole lot of people on this board that need to grow a set.

EVERYONE here knows FAR LESS about torture than John McCain.

Ask John McCain about torture and then claim you know better than he does.

We really need to work on keeping better secrets in this country.

O.K. people.... we're not going to waterboard any more

Glade we got that settled.

Time to "bathe" the terrorist

Several people have pointed out that the Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. That may be true, but is everyone in Gitmo a terrorist? Hard to say, because they have not been found guilty of anything! I hate terrorists as much as the next guy, but it's wrong to round up a bunch of suspects and torture false confessions out them. Terrorism is not a mortal enemy. It is a method. The only way to defeat it is to live without fear.

Those who live in fear of attacks: The terrorists have already beat you.

Those who approve of torture: You are no better than terrorists.

raul January 15th, 2009 12:27 pm ET

@ Kelly

So u are saying our troops and the terrorist are the same . Give me a break !!!!!

Where did Kelly say that? What Kelly asked is are you OK with our troops being waterboarded by an enemy? If we dish it out, we should expect to take it, from a terrorist, or any other enemy

I'm for waterboarding. Let's start with everyone in the Bush administration because I don't believe a word they say.

@richard: "Only democrats think that cutting off someones head is not Torture but waterboarding is."

So the only way we beat the terrorists is to do what they do?!? Don't you see that it's wrong, no matter which side does it?!?

When the good people of this country start acting like terrorists, the terrorists have won. What part of that statement is difficult to understand?

Torture is just plain wrong. Our use of it puts in with such countries as Somalia, Uganda and other enlightened societies. We ARE the good guys.

Maggie January 15th, 2009 11:03 am ET

Hey, Kevin, no one is saying to play nice with terrorists.

There is a Geneva Convention, remember?
--------------------------
Maggie, Maggie, Maggie!

The Geneva Convention DOES NOT apply to terrorists! Nice try!

Lets see, 3000 innocent Americans die, terrorists broadcast be-headings of Americans around the world, they brag and take claim to bombing innocent women and children, yet the hatefilled Democrats,and soon to be ignorant attorney general, get their panties in a twist over one, two, three, thats THREE cases of waterboarding, and ZERO cases since 2003. By the way, waterboarding doesn't leave any physical scars, let alone cause death, and many of our special forces personal in the military have undergone waterboarding in training.

Only democrats think that cutting off someones head is not Torture but waterboarding is.

"waterboarding is torture"

Well, duh.

Dan, excellent points.

I'm all for going Jack Bauer on a suspect when the suspect is known to have credible info critical to saving lives. But we don't have plain sight bad guys like that. What we have at best is a witch hunt. Racial profiling at it's finest.

When we start to bend the laws when it suits our needs, we are heading down a very slippery slope.

I hope some of you realize that torture is the LEAST reliable piece of intelligence. After awhile, a person will say anything so they aren't tortured anymore.

The fact that torture is even used as an intelligence gathering method is beyond stupid for our nation anyways because of how unreliable the information they receive. Also, how are we any better than the terrorists if we allow this to happen anyways? It's sad and hypocritical that in one breath a lot of people throw around how we're a God Fearing country and in the next that it's somehow okay to do these things to another person, no matter who it is.

It's just crazy seeing some of the logic you people are using.

Do all of you people remember 9-11 happened on Bushs watch? Do you remember the Presidential Daily Briefing entitled Osama Bin Laden determined to attack in the US? You know, the one Bush got on August 8th 2001? HMMMMM he has really done a great job hasn't he ? ROFL.
Also, since the US did execute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding because it was torture, should the US be charged with their murder for killing innocent people?

@ New Yorker – January 15th, 2009 12:27 pm ET
'Torture? Keep in mind the one who is subject to the posibility of torture is only tortured if they themselves permit it. All they have to do is "talk" in order to prevent it.' – HOW DELUSIONAL YOU ARE!
First of all, no one allows him/herself to be tortured. He/she/they are tortured because someone wants some information or confession or both from him/her/them.
Second of all, if the torturer truly believes that the person he is about to torture knows something, then he is not going to stop until this person 'proves' him/her right or a superior of the torturer realizes that the tortured is telling the truth (and the torturer is, among many other things, an idiot for believing that he could get something with his methods).
Third, did you ever heard about why torture, after being used for centuries, was slowly being replaced by things like investigation and proper enquires? Because there's a point in which the tortured person can no longer stand the inhuman treatment he/sh is receiving and tells ANYTHING to stop it, thus the purpose of the torture ('find the truth') is overwhelmed by the desire of the tortured to stop his/hers suffering. Pretty reliable source of information, right?
So why does so many countries around the world still use and practice such heinous method of investigation? Are they any democracy to the strict meaning of the word? No. Do they have a real Judicial System (and not a do-what-the government-orders-or-else bunch of judges)? Nope. Can the US be compared to these countries (as of now... not yet, but thye more the BUSH doctrine is still being used the more likely for that to happen).

CNN – Stop moderating my posts!

Does anyone realize who is held at Guantanamo? The mastermind behind the USS Cole bombing has the possibility of going free if we shut down the prison. I cannot fathom that anyone would think someone who planned and bombed a US warship killing several of our service personnel thinks this person should go free. They do not deserve rights under our Constitution. They shouuld not be allowed on American soil. Where were the rules of engagement when the terrorist attacked us? This is war where people die, not some sporting event. The end result out is we will put a bullet in the head of the attackers rather than worrying about taking prisoners because killing on the battlefield is legal.

It doesn't matter what the "realities of today's world" are Erik S. It shouldn't stop us as a people from expecting our gov and our politicians to behave in an upstanding manner, to uphold the Geneva Conv. We agreed to it and we can't stop expecting morality in the area of torture or the right to privacy or anything else this country is supposed to stand for. When we stop expecting it, then we absolutely won't get it. The past is past. Let's move forward. We elected someone to create change. Holder is stating how most Americans feel about waterboarding, regardless if it's what we want to hear.

Ok, guys, it's time to put up or shut up.

If you truly feel that torturing prisoners is an acceptable means of investigating potential crime, answer these questions as honestly as you can:

1. Should the US formally withdraw from the Geneva Conventions?
2. If torture is, in fact, morally and legally correct, then should the US formally announce that we will now torture prisoners during criminal investigations?
3. Why do think that if the torture that has apparently occurred at Gitmo and other secret locations is perfectly fine by you, why do you feel that the Bush Administration has tried so valiently to conceal that they were doing this to begin with?

Torture does not produce valid information. People make up things to get the torture to stop. That is how so many mistakes were made and how the USA went after the wrong people after 9/11. America is no better than our enemies if we use all thier tactics in retaliation.

To me it is the same reason I am against the death penalty. I would rather have 10 guilty men go free, than have one inocent man put to death.

Americal has rounded up thousands of innocent people and tortured them and their children. Have you been paying attention? If, someone had you in custody and brought in your 10 year old son and said they would castrate him in front of you if you did not talk, what would you do? I would say anything I thought would stop them, true or not.

I know this happened because someone who was there told me.

Several "people" have pointed out that the Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. That may be true, but is everyone in Gitmo a terrorist? Hard to say, because they have not been found guilty of anything! I hate terrorists as much as the next guy, but it's wrong to round up a bunch of suspects and torture false confessions out them. Terrorism is not a mortal enemy. It is a method. The only way to defeat it is to live without fear.

Those who live in fear of hypothetical attacks: The terrorists have already beat you.

Those who approve of torture: You are no better than terrorists.

Exactly Mr. Holder – waterboarding IS torture and not in accordance with our American believes – we American DONT torture – we are better people than this. Thank you for your service to our nation Sir.

At 1/20/13 – Can we move the boarder fence from Texas to SF first? Need to make sure the happy friendly people cannot get out into the regular population of angry disgruntled Americans.

I'm still baffled at how much now it seems that to be a Republican you have to suspend all ethical or moral decency and happily endorse torture and war criminality. This barbaric attitude is exactly what we fought to stop in Germany and Japan in the 40's...every so-called American that supports any amount of torture cheapens the blood of those who died so that we could have a decent society. Do any GOPer's still wonder how they lost the election? It should be obvious.

What active imaginations people have. Or is it the opposite - you're just rehashing tired plots from bad TV shows?

"If we capture someone who knows where a bomb is, shouldn't we torture them to find out where it is?" Uh, OK. We're going to threaten physical violence against the person who is willing to die to set the bomb off? Sounds real effective to me. I can really see someone thinking, "You know, I was going to die to get my place in heaven, but I'll give it up because I'm so sick of this waterboarding." You people are clueless. Also, how do we know that they know where a bomb is? If we were able to inherently know information like that, then why not just inherently know where the bomb is and cut out the middle man? The unavoidable fact is that we can't know information like that. It is fear and insecurity that kicks in and skews rational thought into thinking that "anything is acceptable" to protect ourselves.

Some hard facts in life: Bad things happen. There is no way to prevent bad things from happening. We can reduce the chance of bad things happening by trying to live harmonious lives. Bombs have been, and will be, set off by people from foreign lands, and even people from our own country. There is no amount of torture that will prevent this fact. We simply choose to be a people who have principles, or we join the ranks of people like the Spanish Inquisition and Nazis. It used to be that people would rather die with honor than live fearful and cowardly, but I guess that day is gone. Bravery and torture are incompatible. Ponder that reality for a bit.

If we are attacked again who will get the blame??? It won't be George Bush!!!!

This isn't really a discussion about who the targets of torture may be, it's about whether or not we limit the powers of government in a specific way.

Does the government have the power, the people's permission, to commit acts of kidnapping, arbitrarily and indefinitely imprison people, and to torture people? Never think that you can grant government this kind of power, yet control how it would be exercised. There's bo such thing as giving government the power to kidnap and torture just those people over there that we hate.

If government can do these things to anybody, then they can do these things to ANYBODY.

Yeah, and I'm sure they will stop doing it now that the guy who is trying to get a job says it's torture. I'm sure when it comes to us having to get information from a hardcase that waterboarding won't be used. Man, you people will believe anything as long as it's printed and you agree with it. Yo know, like warrantless wire tapping just happened with this administration. It's amazing how ignorant you all really want to be when reality is staring you in the face. But go ahead and be led, since you don't want to think on your own, i'm sure it's an easier life than it is to face the realities of today's world.

RH – I agree, torture is about animosity. Anyone who thinks torture results in security probably thinks rape results in sexual gratification.

And anonymous blogging brings out the best in everyone, obviously.

To those of you who like to play with numbers:
We have sacrificed 5,000 of our best men and women to avenge the 3,000 killed on 9/11 – and we have killed several 100,000 civilians in the process – even for the cynics that see people only as numbers, the numbers don't make sense.

January 15th, 2009 11:05 am ET

Mark Cross Junction VA

Wait till the brilliant Obama has to reopen quantanimo bay prison after American is hit with another terroritst act. Water torture will be a cake walk to these radicals. But what can you expect from a president that has consumed cocaine, supports hamas radicals and middle name is Hussian.

_______________________________________________________

I beleive Bush did coke also. Yep, spoiled lil rich boy with a straw in his nose.

I just have a simple question:

How would you feel if an American were waterboarded by a foreign entity?

Would you accept this as just aggressive interrorgation or would you consider it torture?

Why would your answer be different if the players were changed?

Wow, my comment really struck a nerve.....

The fact is, plain and simple, the terrorists are going to do whatever they choose to do whether we waterboard them or not.... they are already attacking innocents, decapitating prisoners, etc.... does anyone honestly think they will stop that if we stop waterboarding? Terrorists are NOT part of humanity.... they are less than human and deserve treatment accordingly, especially if it will save lives, as it has already done.

Play nice, liberals.....

@Marc, the possibility of terrorists getting a nuke or at least a dirty bomb is very real. there are dozens of unaccounted for tactical nukes ifrom the former USSR and hundreds of poulds of 'missing' uranium. The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed POW's, not terrorists. In fact, there are very few international rights for people like Al Queda. They certainly are not entitled to protection under US laws. Whatever method of interrogation works best, whether it's truth drugs, waterboarding or being forced to listen to Barry Manilow 24/7 should be used. Does anyone seriously think they are going to 'like us' if we treat them nice? They want to destroy us, and I'd rather destroy them first.

Torture? Keep in mind the one who is subject to the posibility of torture is only tortured if they themselves permit it. All they have to do is "talk" in order to prevent it. I would bet that those who are against the use of waterboarding would be all for it if it was a method of preventing one of their children or some other loved one from being killed.

@ Kelly

So u are saying our troops and the terrorist are the same . Give me a break !!!!!

Irritated in Fl January 15th, 2009 11:21 am ET

Torture is killing thousands of Americans and making their loved ones suffer a lifetime without them. Torture is holding a nation hoistage and making it's occupants live in constant fear. Torture is having our resouces drained by a war with terrorists that is costing americans, their homes, jobs and much much more. .....

Irritated in FL-you have described exactly what Bush has done to this country.

Geneva conventions do not apply to terrorists. There is a price for our freedom, over 3000 people paid that price on Sept 11th. How do we argue for the rights of people that took away the rights of other individuals.....what happened to the rights of the people that were murdered on Sept 11th.....that's right, they are not here to argue for themselves. Sept 11th attacks will happen again if we start to disregard our safety.

What a bunch of savages. It's naive to think that it's ok to torture as long as it's not happening to you.

If the government can torture anybody, the government can torture anybody. That includes you, your friends, your family, anybody. If you doubt that, you don't understand why there's such a thing as the Constitution.

There's no such thing as torturing only the guilty, or torturing only people we hate, there's only "we do torture," or "we don't torture."

Should Iran torture Americans who it thinks might be CIA agents (whether they are or not)?

We torture, why shouldn't they?

Indeed, why don't we waterboard Madoff? He deserves it, and we want the truth right?

Any American might be collaborating with terrorists. How can we know unless we can torture them to find out.

To Mike in NYC

Yes I supose you would be interested in"hearing Holder's views on hate crime and speech, as if you didn't already know". These "odious laws" might prevent racist scum like you from spreading your disease.

@ Mike, Syracuse NY – Stop playing the fear card. That is not the case. The case is that people like you and me thinks that the USA are the greatest country in the world, and if by any chance its not its just a matter of time before it becames it. But while you trade the country's moral and ethics for a sense of safety, I prefer to keep the moral and ethics with the country.

What will these wingnuts say when the enemy starts torturing our servicemen and women?If we can legally do it,so can they.

When the terrorist join the Geneva Convention, then we can stop waterboarding. Never met a democrat that didn't side with the terrorist.

@irrated in Fl

Yet again a memeber of the radical religious right shows that they are neither right nor religious.. your bible quote "an eye for an eye" was reputed by Jesus Christ himself.. he said he was the new way the old law is gone that he brings the new law (he was meant the new testament is the new covenant ie a Christian follows the New Testament a Jew the old testament) Then he went on to say that if you are hurt to "turn the other cheek". So a REAL Christian would not say an eye for an eye he would say Turn the other cheek. Now I am not suggesting that we, as a country, turn the other cheek. first we are NOT a Christian country, (although we were founded on Christian ideals Jefferson, Hancock and Washington specifically stated that they ahd no intention of founding a Chirstian country) second the government has the responsibility to defend ourselves against attackers. I am saying though that if you want to spout nonsense fine do so but TRY TRY to spout it correctly

It doesn't matter, Holder isn't going to catch many terrorists anyways...

It is also interesting that those advocating torture believe it works. Torture results in faulty information, given under extreme duress. To think that such information would be highly useful is what is totally naive. Torture has been used for centuries to get people to admit to anything. Ask the people tortured at the orders of Henry VIII. None of those confessions are credible – most have been disproven. Wow – yeah great way for the USA to gather intelligence!!!

@ Irritated in FL

And another thing. Our society believes in and our country was founded on the fundamental human and civil rights that require someone be tried in a fair and just manner, and considered innocent until proven guilty. The people in Guantanamo Bay were NEVER tried. But apparently, you've got the inside scoop on every single one of them. I'll warn you that withholding such information could be considered treason, so you better come out with it all now before Obama releases the prisoners in order to respect their basic human rights.

So waterboarding is torture – what of it?

If Americans were polled the day after 9-11 and asked if they thought we should not use waterboarding as a tool to track down the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11, the overwhelming majority of Americans would have said – WHATEVER IT TAKES – JUST DO IT.

President Bush and VP Cheney have kept America safe for 8 years since 9-11 precisely in part for their aggressive and controversial methods, Americans have gotten complacent; we feel safe; we no longer are fearful of another attack. So, as a direct result of President Bush's success, the very people who critiicize him once cheered him for his tenacity. I hope that Mr Obama only does as well as Mr Bush in keeping us safe. God forbid, if we are attacked again, then all the things we have criticized President Bush for, we will urge President Obama to do the very same things. Let us not be hypocrits - and let us remember and thank President Bush for succeeding at the most important part of his job – keeping us all safe.

@Marc, Matt, Maggie, etc. So if Al Queda got a nuke and was going to set it off in a US city, and we captured someone who knew where it was, you guys would want us to be 'good guys' and let millions die rather than waterboard to get the info and stop it? Would you feel the same way if your child, or spouse, or parents were in that city?

Yeah, we saw how well the water boarding worked didn't we? Didn't get any information now did we?

It's not about playing nice, no one thinks we should just sit down and have a talk with them, it's about the fact that we are a nation of laws and one of our laws is that we do not torture. That's what separates us from them.

So all of you saying they are bad, they deserve it, would it then be ok for them to do the same to you if you were captured if they think you are bad and deserve it?

Joe,
Very well said...ditto.

I have no sympathy for terrorists, just as I have no sympathy for rapists, molesters, and murderers. Torture them I could care less, if you love them so much once they are released into society why dont you give them a room to live in for a while, would be a NICE thing to do.

the problem with torturing suspected bad guys.. is that not all suspected bad guys are bad,,, sometimes people lie for their own personal agendas.. lets say .. for example.. no-bid billion dollar contracts. i hate liars.

Torture is killing thousands of Americans and making their loved ones suffer a lifetime without them. Torture is holding a nation hoistage and making it's occupants live in constant fear. Torture is having our resouces drained by a war with terrorists that is costing americans, their homes, jobs and much much more. Torture is watching your great nation being brought to its knees by a bunch of camel jockeys. Torture is watching your own people defend these heathren and trying to keep their own families fed while stubbornly keeping their pride. Torture is wondering why a country based on christianity can't follow the word of the bible and live by " an eye for an eye". These war criminals should have been placed before a firing squad rather nthan pampered, fed and coddled for years. Can anyone else see the decline in our nation? Are we really just going to hand our country over to our enemies? Barack Obama will do just that.

Guess what? The U.S. never ratified the Geneva Convention thus rendering it meaningless in regards to U.S. law.

Wasn't one of the justifications for invading Iraq that Saddam was an evil tyrant and TORTURED people? Does that now give other countries the right to invade us and liberate us from our tyrants?

we will overcome stupidity in this country when kevin ohio leaves for canada

Hey RH, maybe we can just ask them nicely? I mean I'm sure if we do that they will just come forward with everything right? Its not like we are asking these terrorist directions to the closest min mart. Next time we get hit with a terrorist attack, don't go and start screaming Bush caused this to happen, its because of people like you we can't get the info we need to keep this country safe.

And what does Eric Holder know? What makes him an expert on torture? Torture has its merits when it comes to preventing another 9/11. How many of you lost family and freinds at the twin towers? I did and i say by any means necessary we should stop attacks on the United States. Most of this country's problems can be attributed to the lack of backbone and political correctness and not being willing to do what needs to be done. If we play nicey nice with the terrorist then they will think there are no ramifications for their actions. Besides Eric, the Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorist since they are not in uniforms. Thank You George Bush and Dick Cheney for your resolute and determined actions to keep this country safe and may God Bless you and your families.

"We need to be sure the Attorney General does not bend his views in any way that is partisan or political," Specter said.

Oh, the irony. Where was this concern when it was Gonzalez and Mulkasey blatantly lying about waterboarding and whether what we had been doing to prisoners constituted torture? I'm thinking this sudden scrutiny of whether Holder would act in a partisan manner is partisan in and of itself. STFU and confirm him. The GOP's got no moral high ground on this one.

It amazes me the insular outlook of some Americans. Understand this – if you can commit torture to obtain faulty information, then so can other countries. The US will be in no position to demand anything from anyone when an American is captured. If "Obama Victim" "Kevin in Ohio" and others can't understand the moral issues of committing torture, surely they can understand that what goes around comes around.

Is it torture? Yes. Is it necessary to protect the civilians of this country and others? Yes.

And btw, these terrorists we're doign this to do are not military POWs. The rules laid out by the Geneva Convention apply to POWs.

Let me ask, if you knew waterboarding someone you KNEW had information about an attack that was planned to kill civilians, would you allow it? I know I would!

You little "never served a day in your life gutless wonders" who want to appease the world and go back to the days when we were so "loved " need to look a few hings up.

We were so loved during Clinton we had 8-10 of our US installations bombed all in the name of "love".

The FIRST WTC, Khobar towers, USS Cole etc, etc, etc "we love you wonderful moral people" boom, boom, boom.

In a perfect world they would only kill or attack liberals and slaughter them DUE TO LACK OF INFORMATION, but sorry sheep, it doesn't work like that and I want them tortured and I want to listen to THEIR phone calls to even save your sorry gutless, hollier than thou lives.

WOW !!
I just cant believe how unbelieveably naive some people could be. We were attacked by terrorist and the only way we could defeat them is to turn Americans to terrorists too. JNR, Kevin and Obama victims...
I was thinking you guys should know better but its obvious now from your comments that its far from it.
Torture experts said never give any credible information, and to this point with all the torture and the likes 8 yrs bin laden is still out there. If it worked why didnt Bush get bin laden b4 now?
We need to work on our morals to gain international support. Imagine Egypt bringing Israel and hamas to the table ....where is the greatest country on earth...USA?

Kevin in Ohio – January 15th, 2009 10:47 am ET
'Playing "nice"'? FYI, 'playing nice' is what separate us from them.
THEY are the ones that think that ANYTHING goes, if in the end your enemy is destroyed. THEY are the ones that mocks about what WE do to NEVER EVER sink to their level. THEY, the terrorists all over the world.
Not US, good law abbiding people.

I'm a lot more interested in Holder's positions (as if we didn't know) on "hate" crime and "hate" speech laws. These will have a huge, and negative, impact on civil liberties. Expect said odious legislation to get fast-tracked come Jan. 21.

I don't expect the GOP to push this issue too much, though. We all hate "hate," right?

I can't believe that we are even debating this in the 21st century. Torture 1. does not work. 2. It puts us on the same level as those thugs throughout the world who do it. We are in effect, no better than they are. 3. It is against our own laws and international law, and there's a reason for that. It goes against everything we stand for as a country. In the past few years we've seen our government use torture and suspend habeas corpus. These are two fundamental issues that have struck at the very heart of our constitutional democracy. Terrorists attacked us in order to change our way of life. In trying to "protect" us from future attack, our government has played into their hands. If we allow these policies to continue, we have essentially lost the "war" no matter what happens on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.
We must stop adhering to this myopic view that laws can be circumscribed when they are inconvenient. If we do not want to abide by them, we should change them and officially withdraw from the Geneva agreements. Until then, let's adhere to the laws that form the bedrock of our society.

Finally. Someone who speaks truth. This must be making the GOPers very scared and angry.

So, Kevin in Ohio and JNR, you'd be OK with our troops being waterboarded if they are captured in battle?

I think we need to treat terroists with the utmost respect and they shoul be given every right that we as american's enjoy. They are truly nice people just a little misunderstood. when they all get released by Obama my vote is to let them go in San Francisco they will fit in very nice with there imigration standards

Wait till the brilliant Obama has to reopen quantanimo bay prison after American is hit with another terroritst act. Water torture will be a cake walk to these radicals. But what can you expect from a president that has consumed cocaine, supports hamas radicals and middle name is Hussian.

It is not only water boarding but a combination of tortue tactics that
have been administered . And, whether innocent or guilty, these
detainees have not been charged with a crime. Why are we,
the United States of America allowing this abuse, disregard
for justice to continue?
I most certainly do not support terrorists but are we not putting
ourselves in this category with our actions?

No comparison to waterboarding and the terrorist shooting captives in the head, cutting off heads and posting and bragging about it to the world on the internet. I heard no outcry about that from the liberal or human rights idiots. Thank goodness for our president and our military that have kept us safe the last few years. God bless them!

Hey, Kevin, no one is saying to play nice with terrorists.

There is a Geneva Convention, remember?

Basically, we don't do bad things to prisoners because we don't want bad things happening to Americans who are taken prisoner. If we become the torturers, then there's NOTHING stopping the bad guys from doing the same to American military personnel and civilians taken prisoner. Sure, it's a pipe dream that bad guys won't torture, but at least we can nab them on war crimes and hang them. Oh, guess what - Bush, Cheney and company not only endorsed but supported torture! They must be guilty of war crimes.

Follow the bouncing ball, Kevin.

Holder has my vote!

Waterboarding and other torture most often leads to bad information due to the fact that the subject will say ANYTHING to make the torturer stop. Picture this scenario: You are accused of terrorist activities, which you had no part of (yes, there are some false imprisonments). They continue this waterboarding, despite your pleas that you did nothing wrong. You are getting to the point of panic. Do you (A) continue to profess your innocence and endure countless more hours of torture? Or do you (B) make up any story in order to make the waterboarding stop? There is no choice (C) because your interrogators are already convinced that you have commited a crime.

This has been proven to be counterproductive because the intelligence agency is more often chasing down false leads than finding the real terrorists.

for all you waterboarding fans out there – read http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
quote: "After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war."
"Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding."
According to the US standards after WWII Bush and Cheney might be eligible for the death penalty – but that's only if you live by your own standards, of course.

Finally...someone who has intregrity and flat out says torture is NOT what the united states stands for.
Torture is wrong...period!!!

Well, of course it is.

Comments such as those from Kevin in Ohio and JNR are depressing to say the least. America is truly morally bankrupt. Torture is never about security, it's about animosity.

Thank God we finally have someone of integrity who is going to be AG. There is no excuse for torture. None. Ever.

I feel safer already..

Yes it is. How anyone can say that it isn't is beyond me. The people that do such a horrible thing need to be held accountable for their actions.

What about Marc Rich?

Thanks to this incredibly naive point of view, many Americans will die as the alternative. Playing "nice" will not EVER work with terrorists. I wonder how long it will be before we overcome our outright stupidity in this country.

Maybe we need to torture bad guys

NO We cannot have truth spoken if we acknowledge the crimes we might be held responsible for them.. water boarding is not torture.. umm some of my friends and I do it on weekends for fun it is a test of our endurance and man hood yeah thats the story.....

How does anyone not know this?

Right.... Bush, Cheney, that bunch - they just don't get it. They became the people they were supposed to be chasing and dragged America down with it. They could have fought the bad guys and won without destroying everything America stood for.

When will the trials for Bush and company start?

so what???........................these scum deserve anything they get

The same Republicans who are posing these ridiculous questions about Holder's involvement in the Rich pardon are the ones who supported and/or said nothing about the unethical actions of Gonzo. Are you kidding me! This stinks of GOP political games. America cannot afford this sort of political play at a time of serious issues.

Of course it is. Suddenly, because some argued that it was necessary for the national security, the blatantly obvious became acceptable...

Watch out Bush Administration. Indictment papers are coming soon.

Go get 'em Holder. I saw waterboarding and it didn't seem like a pleasant thing to me. I cannot understand why Bush & Cheney are saying it is not torture. Somebody should do it to them and see if they enjoy it.