April 24th, 2008
12:16 PM ET
13 years ago

The popular vote debate

[cnn-photo-caption image= http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/POLITICS/04/24/campaign.wrap/art.clinton.vote.gi.jpg caption="If Michigan and Florida are counted, Sen. Hillary Clinton is ahead in the popular vote."] (CNN) - Sen. Hillary Clinton is arguing that she is ahead of rival Sen. Barack Obama when it comes to the popular vote.

"I'm very proud that as of today, I have received more votes by the people who have voted than anyone else," Clinton said Wednesday, one day after her decisive win in Pennsylvania.

Not so fast, says Obama's campaign. Clinton's count includes her wins in Michigan and Florida, but the Democratic presidential candidates agreed not to campaign in those states because they violated party rules by scheduling their contests too early.

Full story

soundoff (627 Responses)
  1. Mike NYC

    Hillary Clinton is absolutely correct. Since all of these votes were certified by each states DNC – the votes actually count. Surprise, surprise. The Obama camp may try to steal this election by not counting these delegates, but they can not silence the voices of over 3 million voters.
    Keep pretending it didn't happen, but guess what? Please moderate this CNN-Obama Central.
    Thank you.

    Hillary or McCain for President.

    April 24, 2008 01:04 pm at 1:04 pm |
  2. Rick in Florida



    April 24, 2008 01:04 pm at 1:04 pm |
  3. Eric-PA

    Obama DID campaign in Florida. Obama also encouraged people to vote uncommitted in MI, after he took his name off the ballot, and there were Obama supporters going door to door telling people to vote uncommitted. Why doesn't anyone report this!!!!

    April 24, 2008 01:04 pm at 1:04 pm |
  4. V in CA

    Voters are citizens of this country. They voted. They deserve to have their votes counted. If I lived there and voted for Hillary, I would be flaming mad. I would feel like, why should I be punished for my state's Republican Party (in FL) and in MI, Democratic Party's decisions? And why aren't the other 3 states who moved THEIR primaries up in defiance of the DNC being punished????

    Hillary's popular vote: 15,095,663
    Obama's popular vote: 14,973,720

    April 24, 2008 01:04 pm at 1:04 pm |
  5. Phila Voter

    First when she agree to strip both FL & MI of their delegates and because she is looseing in both DELEGATES & POPULAR Votes now; she counting them. I find this discussing and I am voting for the Green or Independant candidate if they allow her to still the nomination.

    April 24, 2008 01:04 pm at 1:04 pm |
  6. stanley

    You know, even framing it as a "debate" is completely bogus and only plays right into the Clinton campaign's strategy. Two reasons why:

    1) Numbers are numbers. You can't "debate," for instance, whether 5 is bigger or smaller than 3. It *is* bigger, and it's not open for discussion.

    2) And her numbers don't add up. The only way Hillary can claim to have a lead in the popular vote at all is to count her roughly 330,000 votes in Michigan while NOT giving Obama any votes from that state at all, since techincally he was unable to receive any (he wasn't even on the ballot). And if you don't count Michigan, then the only way Hillary had a lead is if you do NOT count the caucus states that don't report the popular vote: Iowa, Nevada, Washington, and Maine.

    CNN ought to be ashamed for even calling Clinton's nonsense a "debate." It is nothing of the sort - it is merely more of the same disconnect from reality that her campaign is, unfortunately, demonstrating with increasing frequency.

    April 24, 2008 01:04 pm at 1:04 pm |
  7. BigAce

    If you haven't figured it out by now, HRC will do anything the get the democratic nomination for president even if it means destroying her opponent or the democratic party.

    Do a little research. This is yet another measurement matrix that her camp has devised to prove that she is the best candidate for the party. A few months ago, the benchmark was the number of super delegates pledged. Then it became who has won the states with the most electoral votes, then it was the pledged delegate count, and then it was I have more vowels in my name, then it was I can bowl better than he can (not).

    The matrix in which she is trying to sell to the super delegates that she leads Obama in a particular area will continue to shift until they see it has some traction. Forget the real numbers like the popular vote or the most state or the total delegate count. She looses in these categories, therefore she has to find someway to point to an area in which she leads.

    Its okay if she want to back-track on her agreement not to count MI and FL, but she doesn't want Obama to get credit for the undecided vote in MI even though she is quick to point out that the Obama camp encourage people to vote undecided and therefore he indirectly was running against her on the ballot in MI.

    April 24, 2008 01:04 pm at 1:04 pm |
  8. kevin

    I have read the entire Democratic National Committee's DELEGATE SELECTION RULES FOR THE 2008 DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION Issued by the Democratic Party of the United States
    Governor Howard Dean, Chairman.

    No where in the rules does it mention "disallowing, removing, modifying, changing, corrupting, manipulating, forging, altering or otherwise "obstructing" the already cast, legal, legitimate, binding, actual, popular votes that have been cast in this election.

    This includes not only all of the votes cast in "completed" caucus and primary process, but "all of the votes in their entirerty. The document signed by both candidates “did not agree” to discredit or disenfranchise the “actual individual votes” they only agreed to the penalties set forth in the pre defined rules.

    this is a legally binding agreement/contract and can not be altered after the fact or it will be, in turn, a "breech of that original contract"
    this is “NOT” fuzzy math, or corrupt calculations, this is the “actual vote count”

    If the DNC say that these votes do not count, then the entire election for FL and MI is corrupt and needs to be redone, if it is legitimate to the point of seating delegates or accepting it in order to make a judgment on seating delegates, then the votes “do count”

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  9. Denny

    This country is screwed regardless – Bush and Republicans, Inc. has down irreparable damage – gaining at the expense of average Americans. Prepare for a new way of life – no going back to the "American way of life" – consumption, overspending with no consequences, etc.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  10. Rus in St. Paul, MN

    According to RCP numbers:

    Popular vote with FL and including caucus estimates: Obama is +316,060 in the popular vote.

    If you include Michigan AND give the uncommited numbers to Obama, the Obama is +225,919.

    Every vote counts Hillary, don't discount any of them, and you are not up in the popular vote.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  11. Michael

    Hillary Clinton, how could you say this. I thought the Clintons claim they are intelligent? What is she trying to do – confuse the public, lie or has difficulties with addition.
    Here is why the Clintons are behind – lack of credibility and desperate need for the white house. American presidency is not a dynasty.
    I have good news for you Hillary, the primaries are not yet over, continue to work hard and see if you can reverse the trend which appear tough and convince the electorates to vote for you. But I also have a bad news for you it's a bit too late. You are competing against a credible candidate and so this "kitchen sink" cannot save you.
    It all over. Bill Clinton, do the right thing; some good advise for your wife will do the world a lot good.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  12. BKB

    Well what do you expect from the team that gave us it depends on what the meaning of "is" is, LOL. If Hillary was winning the delegates and the most states as Obama is now and he was pulling the crap that she is pulling now she would be wailing that it is vast conspiracy against her. Its not conspiracy. Your negatives were too high to win before the race even started and they are only growing. HRC get over yourself . Go home while you still have a career left.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  13. Regardless Democrat

    Here Here, regardless Democrat. Let's all just admit that this is sort of ridiculous and agree to swallow our anguish and vote dem in November.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  14. Lisa

    Why doesn't Barack just agree to a revote? This lady will not stop until all the votes are counted and I agree with her.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  15. ralph

    So much for the rules.

    Bill Clinton made it through the primary in 1992 because of proportional allocation of delegates. Now he talks about how this primary would be over if it were run like the Republican primary, winner takes all.

    Bill Clinton made it through the primary in 1992 because he took the caucus states. Now he talks about how the caucus system is unfair.

    The Clinton's didn't flinch when the rules about when the primaries could be held were implemented. They didn't say a word when the penalties were laid down. Now they want it all changed because they didn't achieve victory on Super Tuesday.

    Let's give some props to Obama, the long shot candidate. He read the rules. Understood proportional allocation of delegates and campaigned in every state knowing he could win delegates even without winning the primary. He didn't look at each state and decide whether they counted or not, to him every state counted.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  16. Of Course....More Lies

    Seriously, i totally agree with julie – oakland, ca, what kind of hypocritical talk is this, Hillary is conniving and deceptive. She has lost any characteristics of diplomacy and charisma, I am here in London, and believe me, the world does not look at her as a respectful leader. How can u count a state where barack wasnt on the ballot, yet you want to coutn FL and MI. What we must all recognize is that anyone, any democrat who says they will vote for McCain if their democratic candidate isnt the nominee, is voting for reasons other than the issues, voting for possibly race, or something superficial and really they are making an uneducated decision. it is quite ironic, that older whites tend to not vote for Barack, this is a demographic, which is socially acclimated to the same outer appearance of all leaders.....

    Also to say Barack wont win these states cuz she is winning indicates that we fail to see that people who are democrats should vote democrat in the general election, and if they don't like i said before they arent voting based on the real issues (iraq, economy, etc.) which the two Dem Candidates pretty much agree on. So in a sense its saying "well some people are racist , but we can't change them, so they aren't going to vote for barack, and so we can't let him win"

    Notice: i am not saying all people voting for Hillary are racist, that would be ignorant on my part, what i am saying is, if a Hillary Voter says he/she will vote for McCain, well I ask "What is the basis by which you choose your candidate, because its clearly not on the serious issues?"

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  17. Independent Mind

    Can you imagine Hillary's reaction if Obama had more votes in Florida? She would be crying bloody murder if Obama tried to include the votes in Florida and Michigan.

    Hillary says that Obama is disenfranchising Florida and Michagan voters. By trying to pursue the Super Dlegates to give her the nomination, Isn't she asking the Super Delegates to disenfranchise all the voters who have given Obama more of the popular vote and pledge delegates?

    Hillary has obviously gone delusional. Sounds like "fuzzy math" to me.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  18. No Obama

    Hillary Clinton is the best democratic candidate in a lifetime.

    In a fair primary-not one fixed for Obama- she would be the democratic nominee by now.

    Shame on the haters and the biased media for sabotaging her and advantaging Obama.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  19. West Virginia Voter

    The spin "why hasn't he closed the deal" does not make sense. He has never been the front runner in the Democratic Primary Campaign. He was not the heavyweight champion. He was the underdog from day one.
    She had the experience. She had the establishment backing her. She had the ties to Washington. She had the deep connections in the Democratic Party.

    I want the media to address the question, "Why hasn't she closed the deal and why couldn't she close the deal?"

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  20. Steven

    In the general election, there are NO caucuses. In the general election, there is NO proportional representation–it is winner of the state takes all the delegates.

    Under the general election rules, Hillary Clinton would have been our nominee months ago.

    Obama cannot win the general election, period.

    April 24, 2008 01:05 pm at 1:05 pm |
  21. Steve in Houston

    Ridiculous. One day the blah blah is about how he can't win the "big states" and now she's saying that ALL states matter in order to make the case that she can count FL and MI.

    There is little doubt in my mind that she will manipulate any facet of the voting to manipulate the supers and eventually pull out a "win." She will spend more time romancing the remaining superdelegates than she will the voters. If I won 55% in a state where I was the only one on the ballot, I would not be bragging.

    I think Obama ought to propose – today – that he is willing to accept the FL results as is, even though he did not campaign, and let her have the 55% MI votes if he gets to claim the 40% uncommitted and add those totals to the overal tally, even though it is unfair to HIM since he wasn't on the ballot. That adds in the 370 missing delegates and ensures a winner with more than 2025. Take the superdelegate issue out of play. Put the pressure on her to spend her time refuting that offer for the next two weeks. If she accepts, he adds about 133 delegates to the total and has it in the bag. Realizing that, what can she do? Agree and lose or show jher true colors by showing just how much manipulation she will go to in order to steal the nomination.

    Talk about a feeling of entitlement and an "elitist" attitude.

    April 24, 2008 01:06 pm at 1:06 pm |
  22. Jayson

    She must be counting those votes as she is running to the car with her head down dodging sniper fire.

    Sometimes it is hard to accurately total things in your head when you are running-including numbers that you earlier agreed would not count in the total.

    So delusional!

    April 24, 2008 01:06 pm at 1:06 pm |
  23. CW in DC

    There is something REALLY wrong with this woman. That is the only conclusion I can come to about her.

    April 24, 2008 01:07 pm at 1:07 pm |
  24. Hillary McCain

    More lies.

    She didn't win PA with double digits. It was more like single digits. Even if you want to say 10, it's still very close to 9 and it's not as big as it was suppose to be. She was suppose to win PA by 20 percentage points.

    But none of supporters seem to be listening to her lies. Who can blame them though, she won PA via the traditional grandma/grandpa votes.

    April 24, 2008 01:07 pm at 1:07 pm |
  25. Grayson

    Just an outright liar!!

    April 24, 2008 01:07 pm at 1:07 pm |
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