October 18th, 2013
01:58 PM ET
9 years ago
Four things we learned from government shutdown
(CNN) - Whew, it's all over, folks - the twin crises of government shutdown and national default countdown. At least for now.
This one wasn't easy. And we'll be talking about it for a while.
That's just one of the four lessons we take away from this calamity in our capital.
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"I cannot accept that by the time the contract was signed in November 2011, that no one realized that red states would try to revolt. "
Right. So you think the argument is totally legitimate: "Haha, we tried to screw you up and succeeded, but all the blame goes to you because you failed to compensate for our sabotage well enough." That ignores so much reality that I'm just done trying to help you understand. Go look up what experts have written and said on the subject. The people responsible for the website did not have any creative solution you can think of available to them to avoid the effects of the GOP/Teatrolls' deliberate attempts to sabotage the website and overall ACA implementation. Assuming that "whatever it takes" could've been done is just silly talk. And if the argument is to become "well, clearly the ACA was broken from the get-go then, because if it wasn't, then it would also have included measures to help fix deliberate attempts to break it" then it's all just devolved into circular logic.
The Real Tom Paine
-Me
The Real Tom Paine
-tom l.
You know what would have been great yesterday during President Obama's campaign rally speech....errrrrrr press briefing?
When he was talking about how Americans are fed up with Washington DC, it would have been so cool for him to say something like "People are rightfully fed up with Washington and the tone and disfunction. I, as the President, must take some responsibility for that tone. I'm the President. It's my job to bring the parties together. These aren't easy times and we have different opinions but we are all Americans. As the leader of the country, I take some responsibility for the disfunction and I'm going to work to make sure this doesn't continue"
Instead, he tells us how it's Democrats and "some responsibile Repbulicans".... He just can't stop. Always has to blame
********************
The "Democrats and "some responsible Republicans" are the only ones interested in governing. Cruz is only interested in ideological purity tests and fundraising. Yet again, giving the GOP a pass, you just can't stop, can you?
_________________________
No Tom, I don't think he is giving the GOP a pass, I have heard a few GOP (yes only a few) take responsibility and say it was a winless fight but does the president accept any responsibility or any Dem for that matter?? Of course not and never will if history is followed!! Bottom line, it is the president's JOB to LEAD and he is failing miserably at it! I would have MUCH MORE respect for him if he did exactly what Tom L suggested but instead he pushes blame to anyone but where it belongs, himself!!! I am no fan of Clinton but he was at least able to work together and bring the country together, all Obama has done is divide America!
***********************
Clinton never faced people who were so committed to an ideology they were willing to destroy the country. Most of the Young Turks who came in with Gingrich have now either left government, were primaried because they chose compromise over principle, or have been eclipsed by people who complain they lack priciples and passion. Gingrich also based his shutdown over discretionary spending, never the debt ceiling and never did he push teh country towards defaulting. Why give in to people who would tap dance in a mine filed because they disagree with settled law? It was the role of the legislature to present a clean CR, like what Boehner wanted to do originally, and get it done witout drama. The GOP did this to themselves and to the country, not the President. You lack of understanding on the shutdown and everything else is staggering, but sadly becoming more commonplace amongst the Right. Tom L has done nothing but shill for the Right endlessly, never admitting ANY error on the part of the GOP, and displaying a criminal lack of understanding of our history and our government. This was a gross overreach by the GOP, and they will pay for it spades in Novermber of next year regardless of whether they try this tactic again or not. All signs point to Cruz doing it again, so be prepared to see a 60 Democratic seats in teh Senate and a Democratic House.
Blah blah blah blah blah. EVERY president faces opposition. Every. Single One. Again, I am no fan of Bush but he had the leader of the senate call him a loser and a liar and he had the Pelosi call him a total failure. How is that any different than today? Don't splice and dice and rationalize. He faced criticism but did not blame dems. He said stupid divisive things like either you're with us or you're with the terrorists and claimed "mission accomplished" before the fact, but he didn't say that it was the dems fault for Iraq not going as well as he wanted to (even though he faced ENORMOUS opposition from the left). It appears that the only difference is that Obama and the liberals are so thin skinned that they can't handle it and then whine about it. There are several repubs who have said that this was not the right path to take. Several. Including some from the TEA Party. You just don't understand my point. My point is that a real leader takes responsibility, EVEN IF IT ISN'T HIS FAULT. In this case, he absolutely has some culpability in this but you are too too blinded now to recognize and we have a president that further hardens your stance. A leader takes responsibility. Tell me once when Obama has taken any responsibility for the shutdown (even if he didn't cause it). You take responsibility and you gain respect from the other side. You don't and it only hardens the stance of those for you and those against you. Thus, we are more divided than ever. Period.
Rudy NYC
I did get a chance to answer your question about Hillary staying healthy through her presidency. I responded under the same story.
@Wake up People
Having had a chance to read smith's post to you I neglected to advise you on the benefits of a good ole fashioned cuss-out,or giving as good as you get when confronted with racism and other sub-human behaviour either from people on this site or in your real life.
Occasionally rolling around in the mud with pigs can actually be fun, and purging is good for the soul (wink!).
You've got options when confronted with ugly is all I'm saying.
@Lynda Minnesota
Right back at you my friend!!
"The traffic problems should have been caught with proper testihg, which was obviously not performed, or executed very poorly. I would compare this to building a bridge across a river"
If you want to compare it to something truly analogous, look at the billion dollar properties like World of Warcraft and FFXIV Online or Diablo 3. All of them were created by some of the most sophisticated software, gaming and web technology developers on the planet. Millions of lines of code. Enormous databases. Hopes, dreams and analyst projections of millions of users creating accounts and being online concurrently. YEARS of development....sometimes even more than a decade. Multi-million-user website/server launches ALWAYS have traffic and server issues, no matter how sophisticated the programmers or how well they planned, and those kinds of examples prove it.
Sniffit
The people the built the site should've built in more capacity.
They were short-sighted.
That's all that Rudy and I were saying.
1.Repubs-stubborn and stupid
2.Dems-dumb and whiners
3.Obama-clueless
4.American people-taken for a ride.
I never knew that you could save the country money by making it WASTE $24 BILLION DOLLARS that us taxpayers will pick up the tab for in an unnecessary shutdown.....
And I still don't know how that's supposed to work.
Tom
I realize there's a lot of Republican breast pounding right now declaring to fight on, but it remains to be seen how many Republicans are going to be willing to sign on for an other to-the-death budget battle in a few weeks.
-------------------
Unless there some sort of game changer that arises, it will be another replay of what just occurred. I don't hold any faith for anything constructive coming out of this legislated budget conference. It's no different than the super-committee that they had agreed to in 2011. What became of that? Nothing constructive. It only served to furher illuminate the differences and widen the divide, as each side hunkered down to impress its' respective base.
Sniffit and Rudy,
Whatever the precise reasons are, and whether or not the government is actually to blame, both of you have offered more information on this topic than CNN has. Myself, I've been so consumed by the shutdown and its aftermath that I've only skimmed the issues. I hope to spend a few hours this weekend getting completely up to speed. Meanwhile, thanks for doing what this network is too busy telling us the 4 things we need to know" to do.
" I would compare this to building a bridge across a river, and by the time the bridge actually opens it is too small because nobody noticed the giant sports complex that was being built at the same time on one side of the bridge."
Why not compare it to something directly comparable: World of Warcraft or Diablo 3 or FFXIV Online or similar big ticket online intellectual properties. Even the best of them had serious launch day traffic and server issues that continued for days or weeks. These are properties put together by massive teams of some of the best, most sophisticated coders, developers, web designers, hardware technicians, etc., on the planet. Millions of lines of code. Giant databases. Sophisticated, enormous server arrays and security measures. Hopes, dreams and analyst projections of millions of users and hundreds of thousands of concurrent logins. And what ALWAYS happens? A terrific Error 404 (or other) sh-tshow, followed by infantile end-user whining and tantrums. THERE is your accurate analogy (particularly the whining and tantrums part), except those developers weren't simultaneously developing their end product while fending off deliberate attempts by others to destroy it and cause them problems.
Sniffit wrote:
Precisely. You admit that but are somehow missing the point, Rudy: Because the "facts on the ground" were what they were when the ACA was written, certain solutions were made either impossible or more difficult by its statutory structure...
Also, keep in mind that the election happened AFTER the ACA was enacted, not vice versa. A lot was "written in stone" by the time we had the new batch of idiots from November 2010 all announcing their intentions to break this part of gov't just to prove it is broken.
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Keep in mind that the contract to build the web site was signed in November 2011, more than a year later. Nothing was set in stone. They started with a $50 million budget, which has since ballooned to nearly $300 million. They were firing off change orders like a skeet shoot. How they missed the fact that they needed more capacity is totally beyond my understanding.
I'm outta time. It's been fun sparring with you. I hope I never have to do it again.
"The people the built the site should've built in more capacity.
They were short-sighted.
That's all that Rudy and I were saying."
That may have been all you were saying, but I got accused by Rudy of "making excuses" for citing facts and providing a well-reasoned explanation for why some of the problems occurred. I'm not willing to lay down for that or give the GOP/Teatrolls a pass just because there were others at fault. Those others at fault have taken responsibility for their part in the problems, but the GOP/Teatrolls are getting a free pass from people and the MSM despite their contributions to the problems...all while they demagogue and criticize everyone else from their ridiculous high-horse. That's not right.
-tom l.
The Real Tom Paine
-Me
The Real Tom Paine
-tom l.
You know what would have been great yesterday during President Obama's campaign rally speech....errrrrrr press briefing?
When he was talking about how Americans are fed up with Washington DC, it would have been so cool for him to say something like "People are rightfully fed up with Washington and the tone and disfunction. I, as the President, must take some responsibility for that tone. I'm the President. It's my job to bring the parties together. These aren't easy times and we have different opinions but we are all Americans. As the leader of the country, I take some responsibility for the disfunction and I'm going to work to make sure this doesn't continue"
Instead, he tells us how it's Democrats and "some responsibile Repbulicans".... He just can't stop. Always has to blame
********************
The "Democrats and "some responsible Republicans" are the only ones interested in governing. Cruz is only interested in ideological purity tests and fundraising. Yet again, giving the GOP a pass, you just can't stop, can you?
_________________________
No Tom, I don't think he is giving the GOP a pass, I have heard a few GOP (yes only a few) take responsibility and say it was a winless fight but does the president accept any responsibility or any Dem for that matter?? Of course not and never will if history is followed!! Bottom line, it is the president's JOB to LEAD and he is failing miserably at it! I would have MUCH MORE respect for him if he did exactly what Tom L suggested but instead he pushes blame to anyone but where it belongs, himself!!! I am no fan of Clinton but he was at least able to work together and bring the country together, all Obama has done is divide America!
***********************
Clinton never faced people who were so committed to an ideology they were willing to destroy the country. Most of the Young Turks who came in with Gingrich have now either left government, were primaried because they chose compromise over principle, or have been eclipsed by people who complain they lack priciples and passion. Gingrich also based his shutdown over discretionary spending, never the debt ceiling and never did he push teh country towards defaulting. Why give in to people who would tap dance in a mine filed because they disagree with settled law? It was the role of the legislature to present a clean CR, like what Boehner wanted to do originally, and get it done witout drama. The GOP did this to themselves and to the country, not the President. You lack of understanding on the shutdown and everything else is staggering, but sadly becoming more commonplace amongst the Right. Tom L has done nothing but shill for the Right endlessly, never admitting ANY error on the part of the GOP, and displaying a criminal lack of understanding of our history and our government. This was a gross overreach by the GOP, and they will pay for it spades in Novermber of next year regardless of whether they try this tactic again or not. All signs point to Cruz doing it again, so be prepared to see a 60 Democratic seats in teh Senate and a Democratic House.
Blah blah blah blah blah. EVERY president faces opposition. Every. Single One. Again, I am no fan of Bush but he had the leader of the senate call him a loser and a liar and he had the Pelosi call him a total failure. How is that any different than today? Don't splice and dice and rationalize. He faced criticism but did not blame dems. He said stupid divisive things like either you're with us or you're with the terrorists and claimed "mission accomplished" before the fact, but he didn't say that it was the dems fault for Iraq not going as well as he wanted to (even though he faced ENORMOUS opposition from the left). It appears that the only difference is that Obama and the liberals are so thin skinned that they can't handle it and then whine about it. There are several repubs who have said that this was not the right path to take. Several. Including some from the TEA Party. You just don't understand my point. My point is that a real leader takes responsibility, EVEN IF IT ISN'T HIS FAULT. In this case, he absolutely has some culpability in this but you are too too blinded now to recognize and we have a president that further hardens your stance. A leader takes responsibility. Tell me once when Obama has taken any responsibility for the shutdown (even if he didn't cause it). You take responsibility and you gain respect from the other side. You don't and it only hardens the stance of those for you and those against you. Thus, we are more divided than ever. Period.
*************
He did. You just weren't paying attention, because he did not give you the grovelling mea culpa you seem obcessed with him producing. You need to ask why you are so fixated on that. As for the division that exists in this country, the people responsible for it are not the ones responsible for making the policy, but they are the ones who seem to benefit from it, namely our foreign owned media in the form of Newscorp and its affiliates. You really need to work on summing things up more effectively, instead of lecturing everyone else.
One other thing, Tom l: you ahve been bitterly complaining about how people have not been willing to view things objectively, but went out of your way to crticize not only the President ( which is perfectly within your rights), but you went on to attack people on here.m You also rarely questioned any GOP strategies, and never, ever criticized a conservative poseter on here. Not once did you get a critique past the censors here. Please don't hold yourself up as above the fray, since you have been more than willing to mix it up. I am not, for the record, thrilled in teh least with my president or the Democrats, but I will take them any day over a group of people hell-bent on desteroying this country in teh name of money, God and Ayn Rand.
Tom I,
I hate to burst your bubble, since you try so hard to defend your position (something many Republicans and independents on this blog don't bother to do), but here is something that I found from a search on the web:
"On September 18th, 2002, CNN's John King announced, 'That's why the president (Bush), in almost every speech, tries to remind voters he inherited a recession.' Five days later, his colleague Suzanne Malveaux regurgitated the same line, reporting, '[Bush] took up that very issue earlier today, saying - reminding voters that the administration inherited the recession.'.....
Bush loooved to blame Bill Clinton for just about everything:
In 2002, he blamed Clinton for the recession.
Also in 2002, for the mess in the Middle East.
In 2004, for manufacturing job losses.
Also in 2004, for a shortage of flu vaccine.
In 2005, for "running from terrorists" and generally causing 9/11.
In 2006, for Bush's own failures in containing North Korea.
In 2008, for the soaring deficit...."
My point is that a real leader takes responsibility, EVEN IF IT ISN'T HIS FAULT. In this case, he absolutely has some culpability in this but you are too too blinded now to recognize and we have a president that further hardens your stance. A leader takes responsibility. Tell me once when Obama has taken any responsibility for the shutdown (even if he didn't cause it). You take responsibility and you gain respect from the other side.
__________________________
Utterly irrational. Why in the world would any adult take the rap for something they didn't do? That's Jesus you're thinking of, not an elected official. Look, Tom, the children in the room are the Republicans, they caused the shutdown, they blew through $24 billion, shoot, they nearly mae the U.S. default. No apologies, no admission of guilt, no explaination. More infuriating is the Right's inability to be factual, or to deal IN facts. They don't believe default is bad; they don't believe polls; they don't believe in Science; they don't believe they did anything wrong.
Looking in on their world, why would someone grounded in reality apologise for that?
"You take responsibility and you gain respect from the other side."
LOL!!!!! If Obama "took responsibility even though it's not his fault" it would quickly become the only thing the GOP/Teatrolls would talk about: how it's all his fault and he should be impeached for it. That's not respect. You live in a very warped daydream.
Anthony said this about Tom L.:
" you try so hard to defend your position (something many Republicans and independents on this blog don't bother to do),"
Let me say that Tom, you do deserve props for that. I'm irritated that you're defending sedition (look up the definition if you think I'm being over the top), but I appreciate your engagement. So many conservatives come here with "Obama the Socialist" and other weak fly-by smack, running away when challenged. Congrats on having a pair.
Now, just recognize I'm right and you're wrong, and all will be perfect, LOL. Enjoy your weekend Tom.
(Liberals are right)
"I'm outta time. It's been fun sparring with you. I hope I never have to do it again."
LOL...a healthy exchange. At least we're two informed people respectfully having a disagreement. I don't resent it at all. Besides, we both (I think) on the same side here overall anyway. Have a good weekend Rudy 🙂
@Dominican mama for obungles-confronted with racism? Really?Im not the person calling people I don`t know racists and making bigoted remarks. That was your pal wake up people. Going around calling people racist when you have no proof of racism is a false prejudgment and is called reverse racism.
smith
@Dominican mama for obungles-confronted with racism? Really?Im not the person calling people I don`t know racists and making bigoted remarks. That was your pal wake up people
-------------------------------------------------
smith two things: the shoe apparently fits so wear it. Secondly, reading comprehension, get some. It might help you sound more intelligent the next time you comment on someone else's post..
@Anthony-What are crying about. All presidents(both dem and repubs) blame the previous president for their problems. Unless the previous potus is of the same party. Welcome to politics in the good ol US of A.